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bgyeo3
Member



Joined: 2004/4/26
Posts: 4
Melbourne, Australia

 Once saved, always saved?

Hello dear brothers and sisters in Christ,

My question is; is it possible for a person to lose his or her salvation? I was leaning on the idea that it could not however could not find a verse in scripture to support my claim. In fact i found a scripture that suggested that it [b]is[/b] possible to lose salvation.

John 15:6 "If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned." (NIV)

I am aware that this may have been discussed earlier. However searching through the forum i could not find it. It would be most appreciated if you could shed some truth into the question.

Thank you for your time.


_________________
Daryl Yeo

 2004/4/28 10:36Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Once saved, always saved?

Hi Daryl,

Excellent question that should bring about some interesting dialouge.

My take is:
Yes and no.

I think that the parable of the sowers (Matt 13) is really instrumental as it applies to this.

Following along with the words of our Lord throughout scripture it is very possible to have been decieved as to be true follower. For instance;

[i]"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it."[/i]
Mat 7:21-27

So in a nutshell, yes, if you have are not truely saved. Too many warnings about guarding yourself against a false assurance;

[i]"Try your own selves, whether ye are in the faith; prove your own selves. Or know ye not as to your own selves, that Jesus Christ is in you? unless indeed ye be reprobate."[/i]
2Co 13:5

But absolutely not if you are a true disciple:

[i]"So Jesus said to those Jews who had believed in him, "If you continue in my word, you are really my disciples. And you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."[/i]
Joh 8:31,32

[i]"My sheep hear my voice. I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand."[/i]
Joh 10:27,28

Much more could be said...

Edit: This thought came:
If you have never been found, you are lost
If you have been found, you cannot be lost

[i]"So Jesus said to the twelve, "You don't want to leave, too, do you?" Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom would we go? You have the words of eternal life. Besides, [b]we have believed and remain convinced[/b] that you are the Holy One of God."[/i]

Joh 6:67-69


_________________
Mike Balog

 2004/4/28 11:14Profile
InTheLight
Member



Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2850
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re:

This is such a devisive topic among Christians these days, I cringe whenever I hear those words.
Therefore I will let others debate this issue but I just want to say this, assurance of salvation does not come from the lips of men, it only comes from the Holy Spirit.


In Christ,

Ron


_________________
Ron Halverson

 2004/4/28 12:26Profile
jeremyhulsey
Member



Joined: 2003/4/18
Posts: 777


 Re:

I'm with Ron on this one. It's an in-house debate that causes more trouble than it's worth most of the time.

I will say there are extremes to both sides of the issue. I have a friend who has at times cursed God for matters as small as a girl breaking up with him, and basically lives in sin. But he goes to the extreme in saying that since he has believed in Christ, he cannot be lost no matter what.

Then I have some other friends who believe that if you make the slightest slip you are immediately lost and you had better repent.

We should judge ourselves in this matter. Does the Spirit of God witness to our spirits that we belong to Him? That should be the question we ask ourselves.

In Christ,
Jeremy Hulsey


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Jeremy Hulsey

 2004/4/28 12:58Profile
JKail
Member



Joined: 2004/2/29
Posts: 34


 Re:

I was once praying about this issue when I sensed these words in my heart: "Hold on to the promises; head the warnings" There are great promises of assurance of salvation to those who believe but also some severe warnings about falling away. We must treat each equally, and preachers must preach both as well.

I definitely see problems with going to either extreme. There must be balance; we must preach the whole counsel of God. "The man who fears God will avoid all extremes." (Ecclesiastes 7:18) I think many churches get caught up in there own doctrines and neglect to preach the whole Word of God.

-Jake Kail


_________________
Jake Kail

 2004/4/28 14:57Profile
Gideons
Member



Joined: 2003/9/16
Posts: 474
Virginia

 Re:

There's some very wise counsel on this topic.

I would simply add the following from Hebrews 12:8 (AMP) "Now if you are exempt from correction and left without discipline in which all [of God's children] share, then you are illegitimate offspring and not true sons [at all]."

So if one is not really saved and strays, will God not discipline him if he is one of his children? Believe me, God disciplines (chastens) and I don't believe it's God's first choice but because of our rebellious hearts, He has no choice. I would suggest reading all of the 12th Chapter of Hebrews as well.

Because I know my Father will discipline me if I get out of line, I don't really even think about the question you raised much anymore. But I wrestled with this question for at least 30 years because of a number of things, so I pray that God will give you wisdom.


_________________
Ed Pugh

 2004/4/28 15:54Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re: once saved, always saved?

It all depends on your definitions of
'once'
'saved'
and 'always' :-P


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2004/4/28 17:53Profile
KeithLaMothe
Member



Joined: 2004/3/28
Posts: 354


 Re: Once saved, always saved?

This is a touchy topic, and one I'm not dogmatic on, but I'd like to share some Scripture that helped me see past my former presuppositions on the matter. Please be patient and understanding, and I pray the Lord will have me be likewise.

Quote:
My question is; is it possible for a person to lose his or her salvation?


Short answer: yes.

Long answer: if someone is living in sin, they aren't saved, period.

1 John 1:6
If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and [b]walk in darkness[/b], we [b]lie[/b], and do not the truth.

1 John 2:3
And [b][u]hereby[/u][/b] we [b]know[/b] that we [b]know Him[/b]: [b][u]if[/u] we [u]keep[/u] His commandments[/b].

1 John 2:4
He that saith, "I know Him," and [b]keepeth not His commandments[/b], is a [b]liar[/b] and the truth is not in him.

1 John 2:9
He that saith he is in the light and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.

1 John 3:6
Whosoever abideth in Him [b]sinneth not[/b]; [b][u]whosoever[/u] sinneth hath not seen Him[/b], neither known Him.

1 John 3
8 [b]He that [u]committeth sin[/u] is of the [u]devil[/u][/b], for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God [b]doth not commit sin[/b]; for His seed remaineth in him, and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 By this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: [b][u]whosoever[/u] doeth [u]not[/u] righteousness is [u]not[/u] of God[/b], neither is he that loveth not his brother.

1 John 3:15
15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer, and ye [b]know[/b] that [b][u]no[/u] murderer[/b] hath [b]eternal life[/b] abiding in him.

1 John 5
2 By [b][u]this[/u][/b] we know that we love the children of God: when we [b]love God[/b] and [b]keep His commandments[/b].
3 For [b][u]this[/u][/b] is the [b]love of God[/b]: that we [b]keep His commandments[/b]; and His commandments are not grievous.

1 John 5:18
We know that whosoever is born of God [b]sinneth not[/b], but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

James 1
14 But every man is tempted when he is drawn away by his own lust and enticed.
15 Then when [b]lust[/b] hath conceived, it bringeth forth [b]sin[/b]; and [b]sin[/b], when it is finished, bringeth forth [b][u]death[/u][/b].

James 1
21 Therefore lay apart all filthiness and the superfluity of wickedness, and receive with meekness the engrafted Word, which is able to save your souls.
22 But be ye [b]doers[/b] of the [b]Word[/b] and [b]not hearers only[/b], [b][u]deceiving[/u][/b] your own selves.

James 1
26 If any man among you seem to be religious and bridleth not his tongue, but [b]deceiveth his own heart[/b], this man's religion is [b][u]vain[/u][/b].
27 [b]Pure[/b] religion, [b]undefiled[/b] before God and the Father, is this: to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to [b]keep himself [u]unspotted[/u] from the world[/b].

James 2:14
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and hath not works? Can faith save him?

James 2
17 Even so [b]faith[/b], if it hath [b]not[/b] works, is [b]dead[/b], being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, "Thou hast faith, and I have works." Show me thy faith apart from thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well. The devils also believe -- and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that [b]faith without works is dead[/b]?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and [b]by works faith was made perfect[/b]?
23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which saith, "Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness"; and he was called the friend of God.
24 Ye see then how [b]by [u]works[/u] a man is justified, and [u]not by faith only[/u][/b].
25 Likewise also, was not Rahab the harlot justified by works when she had received the messengers and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is [b]dead[/b], so [b]faith without works is [u]dead[/u][/b] also.

Hebrews 12:14
Follow peace with all men, and [b][u]holiness[/u], without which [u]no man[/u] shall [u]see[/u] the [u]Lord[/u][/b]

The question with Eternal Security (or, rather, Perseverance of the Saints) isn't whether someone living in sin is saved, it's whether they ever were saved. Does it matter?

Another thing that leads me to question whether there's a practical difference: if you're really saved, and you really love God, wouldn't you want to abstain from all sin simply because of that love for God? If you need to have the threat of hell to keep you from sinning, aren't you still unsaved?

For example, if a man sees someone else who is his enemy and is tempted to kill him, even if he doesn't do so it may still be sin. If he doesn't kill the man because there are police around or people who would tell the police, it's still sin. If he doesn't kill the man because the man is important to his social or political agenda or whatnot, it's still sin. If he doesn't kill the man because he believes he would get sent to hell and abstains [b]solely[/b] because he doesn't want to go to hell, it's still sin and he's still going! Only if he abstains because God deserves his obediance and he wants to obey God, only then is he free from guilt.

But to directly address the question of whether salvation can be lost, I believe this Scripture is very illuminating:

James 5
19 [b]Brethren[/b], if any of [b]you[/b] err from the truth and one [b]convert[/b] him,
20 let him [b]know[/b] that he who converteth the [b]sinner[/b] from the error of his way shall [b]save a [u]soul[/u] from [u]death[/u][/b], and shall hide a multitude of sins.

It's talking to the "Brethren," saying if any of "you" (meaning one of the Brethren) err from the truth (the error is later specified as sin, "the sinner"), and saying that if anyone "convert" the "sinner" from the error of his way, to "[u]know[/u]" that he has saved a "soul" from "death" (obviously spiritual, not physical, death).

Note that this is not equivalent to "every time you sin you lose your salvation," James 1:14-15 (quoted above) makes it clear (to me, at least) that there's a process involved before actual spiritual death occurs. 1 John 5:16-17 also speaks of some sins not being unto death (a complicated topic in and of itself):

1 John 5
16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask and He shall give him life, for those who sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death. I do not say that he shall pray about it.
17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not unto death.

I also believe God generally grants us a "space of repentance" as He gave Jezebel:

Revelation 2
21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication, and she repented not.

If you want a thorough treatment on the issue from the side that answers "yes", try www.evangelicaloutreach.org , Dan Corner (for better or worse) has made Conditional vs. Eternal Security his crusade.

God's grace be with you all, in Christ Jesus our Lord,
-Keith

 2004/4/28 17:58Profile
KeithLaMothe
Member



Joined: 2004/3/28
Posts: 354


 Re:

Quote:

It all depends on your definitions of
'once'
'saved'
and 'always' :-P

Quite true, it entirely depends on what we mean by it. Even Finney, as I understand it, believed in Perseverance of the saints, but he probably meant something quite different by it than Spurgeon, Beza or Calvin (I don't know if Calvin ever used the phrase).

I think I agree with Leonard Ravenhill: "There is no finality to the Christian life this side of eternity." I'm not sure what he meant by it, though :)

 2004/4/28 18:01Profile
thevoice
Member



Joined: 2004/4/13
Posts: 16


 Re: Once saved, always saved?

If God will save you today, knowing that you will be lost tomorrow, then he can't be God in my view.

As it is written in (KJV) about Jacob & Esau below
+++++++++++++++++
ROMANS 9:11 (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
ROMANS 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
ROMANS 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

ROMANS 9:14 What shall we say then? [Is there] unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

ROMANS 9:16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
+++++++++++++++++

It is by election that one is saved. And by Grace that one is able to live Godly. IT IS NOT OF WORKS, BUT BY GRACE. AND IF SAVED, YOU WILL LIVE GODLY. IF YOU CAN"T LIVE GODLY (YES WE MAKE MISTAKES) ...For the life that we live as Paul says is Christ (Holy Ghost) living in me.

Also in
ROMANS 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

ROMANS 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

You can't talk about eternal security without eection, predestination, foreknowledge, grace, and the Power of God to change man ..

Yes ONCE SAVED, IT is IMPOSSIBLE to be lost .. as it says in

HEBREWS 6:4 For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

HEBREWS 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,


_________________
John Williams

 2004/4/28 19:14Profile





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