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HomeFree89
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Joined: 2007/1/21
Posts: 797
Indiana

 Re:

edit: double post


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Jordan

 2007/7/25 10:34Profile
BradW
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Joined: 2006/5/30
Posts: 94
Edmonton, AB, Canada

 Re: Paul - Past or present

Although I'm not a Greek scholar and have no clue what tenses the original texts indicate, when I read Romans 7:24 I CANNOT but continue to the end of the chapter...

Quote:
I thank God - through Jesus Christ our Lord!



...of course! Jesus Christ our Lord delivers me from this body of death.

In my limited understanding, as best as I read Romans 7, I think that it is in part a description of Paul's testimony of the difference that Christ made in his life.

Chapter 7...in the flesh.
Chapter 8...in the spirit.

In Christ,
Brad.


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Brad Wright

 2007/7/25 11:11Profile
Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

The word "sinner" or "sinners" refer to the unsaved 66 out of 67 time in the Bible.

The only time is is for a christian is when Paul calls himself the Chief of sinners.

 2007/7/25 11:46Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved. AMEN.

dear saints i think it is important to note that Paul wrote to Timothy toward the end of his life. The order in which his epistles appear in the word is not the order in which they were written. if you notice, they begin with ROmans which is the longest and then go down the line in order of decreasing length. At first Paul saw himself as not being lesser than the most eminent apostles, then later he said he was the least of them on account of his persecution of the church, then at the end of his life he saw that he was the chief of sinners. We must understand that with Paul, God revealed so much of Himself to him that the Light and Holiness of God exposed every single wickedness of Paul to him. i can bear witness to this and i know you can too in that the closer you get to God, the more plainly you see your own wickedness and the more you realize how depserately you remain in need of the Grace and Mercy of GOd daily. my dear wife said to me some time ago that just when she though she had repented of all, God would say to her "Well there is the matter of..." i bless God i don't even look to see if i have repented of all but by His Grace i press on toward Perfection. i say that it is better to strive with God and by Him to be sinless than not to. The former causes one to press into God all the more and that is a blessed thing! Saints God has had me repent of much but i know i yet have more to repent of than i have already done...but i thank God for Jesus who saves me from the body of sin!

if you have not, i would say read bro Ron's post (IntheLight) it is a Holy Ghost annointed view of what was going on.

here it is for emphasis:

[i][b][color=0000CC]I think maybe we are missing the point of what Paul is saying of himself in 1 Timothy when he says, "Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief". He also speaks of himself like this in the present tense in Romans 7:14, "I am carnal, sold under sin".

He is not sanctioning a life of defeat but rather in both cases I believe that he is saying that after serving God faithfully for so many years and suffering so many hardships he, the great Apostle, still needs the grace of God as much as ever. His old nature is not improved and he is still completely dependent on God's undeserved love.
[/color][/b][/i]

Grace and Peace be ours in Jesus' Name AMEN.


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Farai Bamu

 2007/7/25 15:53Profile









 Re:

I think Brother Josh was right on when he said that the full context shows Paul reflecting upon the past, Paul was thinking on his previous life.

Because of what Paul did PREVIOUSLY, He said that he was PRESENTLY the Cheif of sinners. Often when someone thinks about the things that they have done they say to themselves, "I'm a terrible person", even though they are thinking about their past actions.

1Ti 1:12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;
1Ti 1:13 Who [b]was before[/b] a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
1Ti 1:14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
1Ti 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
1Ti 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

But there is no reason to believe that Pauls present character was not changed after he was born again and started following Christ. Obviously if he was born again and was a follower of Christ, his entire character was changed. So Paul lived, as he said, a just, holy, blameless life worthy to be followed.

 2007/7/25 23:38
rowdy2
Member



Joined: 2007/1/21
Posts: 528
Southern USA

 Re: Paul: Actively & Presently the Worst Sinner??

Paul: Actively & Presently the Worst Sinner??

There are today and through out history been sinners that exceeded their wildest dreams of persecution of the Body of Christ. At any given moment before his encounter with the Head of the body, Christ Jesus, Paul for a period in time may have been the worst sinner for Saul did demonstrate a zeal for persecuting the Body of Christ.
But the story did not end there because after His vision and conversion of Saul into The Body of Christ Jesus, The Church of God, Paul was subject to persecution by religious zealots that is common for members of The Body of every generation to receive, even more so in Paul case.

(Ac.2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.)

(Ac.9:16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.)

(Ac.9:23-25,29
23 And after that many days were fulfilled, the Jews took counsel to kill him:
24 But their laying await was known of Saul. And they watched the gates day and night to kill him.
25 Then the disciples took him by night, and let him down by the wall in a basket.
29 And he spake boldly in the name of the Lord Jesus, and disputed against the Grecians: but they went about to slay him.)

(Ac.16:19-25
19 And when her masters saw that the hope of their gains was gone, they caught Paul and Silas, and drew them into the marketplace unto the rulers,
20 And brought them to the magistrates, saying, These men, being Jews, do exceedingly trouble our city,
21 And teach customs, which are not lawful for us to receive, neither to observe, being Romans.
22 And the multitude rose up together against them: and the magistrates rent off their clothes, and commanded to beat them.
23 And when they had laid many stripes upon them, they cast them into prison, charging the jailor to keep them safely:
24 Who, having received such a charge, thrust them into the inner prison, and made their feet fast in the stocks.
25 And at midnight Paul and Silas prayed, and sang praises unto God: and the prisoners heard them.)

(Ac.20:22-24
22 And now, behold, I go bound in the spirit unto Jerusalem, not knowing the things that shall befall me there:
23 Save that the Holy Ghost witnesseth in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions abide me.
24 But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.)

(Ac.21:13 Then Paul answered, What mean ye to weep and to break mine heart? for I am ready not to be bound only, but also to die at Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus.)

(Ac.21:27-33
27 And when the seven days were almost ended, the Jews which were of Asia, when they saw him in the temple, stirred up all the people, and laid hands on him,
28 Crying out, Men of Israel, help: This is the man, that teacheth all men every where against the people, and the law, and this place: and further brought Greeks also into the temple, and hath polluted this holy place.
29 (For they had seen before with him in the city Trophimus an Ephesian, whom they supposed that Paul had brought into the temple.)
30 And all the city was moved, and the people ran together: and they took Paul, and drew him out of the temple: and forthwith the doors were shut.
31 And as they went about to kill him, tidings came unto the chief captain of the band, that all Jerusalem was in an uproar.
32 Who immediately took soldiers and centurions, and ran down unto them: and when they saw the chief captain and the soldiers, they left beating of Paul.
33 Then the chief captain came near, and took him, and commanded him to be bound with two chains; and demanded who he was, and what he had done.)

(Ac.22:22-24
22 And they gave him audience unto this word, and then lifted up their voices, and said, Away with such a fellow from the earth: for it is not fit that he should live.
23 And as they cried out, and cast off their clothes, and threw dust into the air,
24 The chief captain commanded him to be brought into the castle, and bade that he should be examined by scourging; that he might know wherefore they cried so against him.)
(Ac.23:10 And when there arose a great dissension, the chief captain, fearing lest Paul should have been pulled in pieces of them, commanded the soldiers to go down, and to take him by force from among them, and to bring him into the castle.)

(Ac.23:12-15
12 And when it was day, certain of the Jews banded together, and bound themselves under a curse, saying that they would neither eat nor drink till they had killed Paul.
13 And they were more than forty which had made this conspiracy.
14 And they came to the chief priests and elders, and said, We have bound ourselves under a great curse, that we will eat nothing until we have slain Paul.
15 Now therefore ye with the council signify to the chief captain that he bring him down unto you to morrow, as though ye would enquire something more perfectly concerning him: and we, or ever he come near, are ready to kill him.)

(Rom.8:35-37
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.)

(1Cor.4:9 For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.)

(1Cor.4:11-13
11 Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace;
12 And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:
13 Being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day.)

(2Cor.1:8-10
8 For we would not, brethren, have you ignorant of our trouble which came to us in Asia, that we were pressed out of measure, above strength, insomuch that we despaired even of life:
9 But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead:
10 Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver us;)

(2Cor.4:8-12
8 We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair;
9 Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed;
10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.
11 For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.
12 So then death worketh in us, but life in you.)

(2Cor.6:4-5
4 But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses,
5 In stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labours, in watchings, in fastings;)

(2Cor.6:8-10
8 By honour and dishonour, by evil report and good report: as deceivers, and yet true;
9 As unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and, behold, we live; as chastened, and not killed;
10 As sorrowful, yet alway rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing all things.)

(2Cor.11:23-27
23 Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.
24 Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.
25 Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;
26 In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;
27 In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.)

(2Cor.11:32-33
32 In Damascus the governor under Aretas the king kept the city of the Damascenes with a garrison, desirous to apprehend me:
33 And through a window in a basket was I let down by the wall, and escaped his hands.)

(2Cor.12:10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.)

(Gal.5:11 And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased.)

.6:17 From henceforth let no man trouble me: for I bear in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus.)

(Php.1:30 Having the same conflict which ye saw in me, and now hear to be in me.)

(Php.2:17-18
17 Yea, and if I be offered upon the sacrifice and service of your faith, I joy, and rejoice with you all.
18 For the same cause also do ye joy, and rejoice with me.)

(Col.1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:)

(1Th.2:2 But even after that we had suffered before, and were shamefully entreated, as ye know, at Philippi, we were bold in our God to speak unto you the gospel of God with much contention.)

(1Th.2:14-15
14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:
15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:)

(1Th.3:4 For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.)

(2Tim.1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.)

(2Tim.2:9-10
9 Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound.
10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.)

(2Tim.3:11-12
11 Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.
12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.)

(2Tim.4:16-17
16 At my first answer no man stood with me, but all men forsook me: I pray God that it may not be laid to their charge.
17 Notwithstanding the Lord stood with me, and strengthened me; that by me the preaching might be fully known, and that all the Gentiles might hear: and I was delivered out of the mouth of the lion.)


Eddie


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Eddie

 2007/7/26 13:57Profile









 Re:

Quote:

jimdied2sin wrote:


Jesse.. the thing I find most ironic about all of this is that the answer for some is to

1) twist scripture to define perfection
2) commend themselves as being perfect under their pet definition rather then the biblical definition
3) accuse anyone who does not adhere to their pet doctrine as being an antinomian
4) Puff them themselves up through this doctrine when in fact the saints of God who oppose it are quite possibly walking in truer holiness then those who support it (I only base this off spending 1+ years laboring, praying, studying and breaking bread with the author of this article and do not pass judgment on your personal walk in any way)

The kingdom of God is not in word but in power.. we can squabble over the meaning of words but the reality will be layed bare before the just judge of all the universe.



Right on. this is good

 2007/7/26 15:45
moreofHim
Member



Joined: 2003/10/15
Posts: 1632


 Re: Paul worst of sinners

Ironman said:

Quote:
if you notice, they begin with ROmans which is the longest and then go down the line in order of decreasing length. At first Paul saw himself as not being lesser than the most eminent apostles, then later he said he was the least of them on account of his persecution of the church, then at the end of his life he saw that he was the chief of sinners. We must understand that with Paul, God revealed so much of Himself to him that the Light and Holiness of God exposed every single wickedness of Paul to him. i can bear witness to this and i know you can too in that the closer you get to God, the more plainly you see your own wickedness and the more you realize how depserately you remain in need of the Grace and Mercy of GOd daily.



Amen!

This is just true humility. God continued to humble him, to decrease him- just as He did with Moses and others. The more broken you get, the more you realize how utterly sinful and wretched you really are- but along with that comes the [b]immense[/b] gratitude for the grace of God in which he has not squashed you flat for your prideful heart, but instead continues to love you and humble you to become more like His Son.

In His love, Chanin


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Chanin

 2007/7/26 16:02Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3699
Ca.

 Re:

As with Paul in his physical deformities and infirmities, God did not take them away, but is not His Grace the same today. If it was sufficient enough for Paul, I am sure it stays sufficient for us. Was it not left to Paul to keep him from being pridefully puffed up, that is certainly sin. For He that knows to do right and does not do it, to him it is sin.

Jam 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth [it] not, to him it is sin.


In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2007/7/27 16:44Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

sis Chanin
Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved. AMEN.

Quote:
This is just true humility. God continued to humble him, to decrease him- just as He did with Moses and others. The more broken you get, the more you realize how utterly sinful and wretched you really are- but along with that comes the immense gratitude for the grace of God in which he has not squashed you flat for your prideful heart, but instead continues to love you and humble you to become more like His Son.



i bless God for the Cross and how He is working the Cross out in me. The more sensitive He makes me to my sin, the more i repent, the more i repent, the more i see His Grace extended to me, the more His Grace is extended to me, the more i see my absolutely desperate and constant need for it.

God is Good.

Grace and Peace be ours in Jesus' Name. AMEN.


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Farai Bamu

 2007/7/28 2:34Profile





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