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 Paul: Actively & Presently the Worst Sinner??

Quoting from:

Quote:
Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst. 1 Timothy 1:15



Someone tried to say, on a different board, that Paul was saying here that he was actively and presently the worst sinner alive, and that Paul was not reflecting upon his unconverted life but his converted life.

This was my response to such a poor interpretation of scripture:

Are you saying that Paul, when he called himself "the Chief of Sinners" was talking about his current life and not his previous life? That he was literally the worst sinner alive at that moment? That no man presently lived and acted worst then Paul did at that moment?

That there was no moral change when Saul became Paul, but that he remained the same?

That he was worst, in his conduct at that moment, then all the fornicators, drunkards, sodomites, homosexuals, murderes, liars, and thieves that were alive at the time? That he was actively and presently worst then them at all even after being "saved" and "born again"? That Paul was actively and presently the Chiefest fornicator, the greatest sodomite, the worst homosexual??

That Paul as a "new man" was worst then everyone else who had not put off the "old man". That Paul as a save individual was worst then all unsaved sinners??

Do you honestly believe that a great majority of the N.T. was written, at the time, by the greatest sinner on earth?

I thought that the Holy Scriptures were written by Holy men who were influenced by the Holy Spirit?

But your telling me that the Holy Scriptures (Pauls epistles) were written by the most unholy, ungodly, wicked, vile, evil man of his day??

Do you believe that Paul wrote to the Churches, trying to remove the speck from their eyes, when Paul had a log in his own? For if Paul was actively and presently the worst of sinners, the Cheif of sinners, then all sin would look like a speck compared to his own.

Was Paul really a hypocrite? If Paul was the chief of sinners in a literal present sense, he must have been WORST then all the hypocrites of his day.

I think it's quite obvious that Paul was reflecting upon his past - previous life when He called himself the Chief (worst) sinner, and was not at all talking about his current, present life. Paul was reflecting on the great sins he committed (probably the murdering of the Saints) and was not thinking upon his current life, which was one of love and self denial for God and others.

 2007/7/25 7:59
Nile
Member



Joined: 2007/3/28
Posts: 403
Raleigh, NC

 Re: Paul: Actively & Presently the Worst Sinner??

Quote:
Do you believe that Paul wrote to the Churches, trying to remove the speck from their eyes, when Paul had a log in his own? For if Paul was actively and presently the worst of sinners, the Cheif of sinners, then all sin would look like a speck compared to his own.


Quote:
Was Paul really a hypocrite? If Paul was the chief of sinners in a literal present sense, he must have been WORST then all the hypocrites of his day.



All good points.
The argument they use is that Paul [i]considered[/i] himself the greatest sinner of all. In his own eyes, they say, he was worse than everyone else on earth. And if you don't think the same way about yourself, well, that's wickedly prideful of you.

This is of course ridiculously silly. Paul over and over talks about his blameless conduct. He even says, "Follow me for I follow Christ". I don't think a sinner could say that!

Your point about all other sin being a speck is a great counter to this.

Thanks for the thread,
Nile


_________________
Matthew Miskiewicz

 2007/7/25 8:20Profile









 Re:

If Paul was the greatest sodomite, the worst homosexual, the most perverted fornicator of his time, even after his conversion, he could not have said that he was holy, just, and blameless, a model to be followed:

1Th 2:10 - Ye are witnesses, and God also, how holily and justly and unblameably we behaved ourselves among you that believe:

2Th 3:7 - For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;

----------------------------

He tried to use this scripture to say that Christians sin and aren't righteous, just as much as when they were unconverted:

Romans 3:10-18 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, [b]there is none that seeketh after God[/b]. [u]They[/u] are all gone out of the way, [u]they[/u] are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. [u]Their[/u] throat is an open sepulchre; with [u]their[/u] tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under [u]their[/u] lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: [u]Their[/u] feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in [u]their[/u] ways: And [b]the way of peace have [u]they[/u] not known[/b]: [b]There is no fear of God before [u]their[/u] eyes[/b].

Why did Paul say "they" and "their" instead of "us" and "we"???

Because Paul was talking about the unconverted. The unconverted are not righteous, only the converted are.

The unconverted do not "seek after God". But the converted have sought and found.

The unconverted do not know the way of peace. But Jesus is the way and Christians do know that.

The unconverted have "no fear of God". But the converted do fear God, seeing that "the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom."

 2007/7/25 8:30









 Re:

Jesse, not that I disagree with your post in general, but by your logic would you say that Paul was "the greatest sodomite, the worst homosexual, the most perverted fornicator of his time", before his conversion? Of course he was not the chief in all manifistations of sin.. however as was pointed out in the recent articles on the fatal trap of holiness preaching... Peter was not perfect the way some of todays so called holiness preachers would define perfect, yet God saw fit to use him.

Quote:
Galatians 2
11When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong. 12Before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. 13The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.
14When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter in front of them all,



Was Peter sinning that grace may abound?

In Christ - Jim

 2007/7/25 8:39









 Re:

1. Paul said that he was holy, just, and blameless, a model to be followed.

2. "The fatal trap of Holiness preaching" is one of the worst articles I have ever seen. It brutalizes scriptures to justify sin, and it completely downplays the new birth and disregards the saving power of God through Christ.

The bible says we get a new heart and Christ cleanses the inside of the cup. There is no sin Jesus cannot save you from, there is no sin that you cannot repent from.

The problem with that article is that it made death the Savior and the grave the cure, rather then the present risen Savior who gives us a new heart and dwells within us.

3. Once error is brought to a Christians attention, they must repent or perish. Grace is given to all sins that are forsaken (Luke 13:3), but there is nothing but wrath for present, unforsaken, willfull sin. (Heb 10:26-31)

 2007/7/25 8:44









 Re:

Quote:
The problem with that article is that it made death the Savior and the grave the cure, rather then the present risen Savior who gives us a new heart and dwells within us.



Jesse.. the thing I find most ironic about all of this is that the answer for some is to

1) twist scripture to define perfection
2) commend themselves as being perfect under their pet definition rather then the biblical definition
3) accuse anyone who does not adhere to their pet doctrine as being an antinomian
4) Puff them themselves up through this doctrine when in fact the saints of God who oppose it are quite possibly walking in truer holiness then those who support it (I only base this off spending 1+ years laboring, praying, studying and breaking bread with the author of this article and do not pass judgment on your personal walk in any way)

The kingdom of God is not in word but in power.. we can squabble over the meaning of words but the reality will be layed bare before the just judge of all the universe.

Let me conclude with this.
Lets say I start railing against the damnable prosperity doctrine and in my railings I bypass scriptural truth and demand that all believers quit their jobs and sell every possesion besides one article of clothing and refer to those who dont as greedy. I have now created a false doctrine and I can use certain texts to prove my position.

So lets say someone who lives a very simple life in Christ, basic shelter, simple diet, old unfashionable clothing, shares with all in need, cared for the orphans and widows, not storing up treasure on earth, etc. comes along and shows me my error.

What a great place to be in a debate... now all I have to do is say that this genuine person is promoting greed and the prosperity gospel by coming against my doctrine. What a blessed man indeed can have the debate so framed to support his error!

I feel like we are beating a dead horse, and quite frankly I don't think we are that far off in our points. Unfortunately this debate has been framed already.

Either way, I walk in no known sin thanks be to the cleansing power of Christ. I have read and listened to and agree with the same revivalists as you to a great extend and preach that Jesus came to save us from our sin, not in it.

In Christ - Jim

 2007/7/25 9:07
InTheLight
Member



Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2736
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re: Paul: Actively & Presently the Worst Sinner??

I think maybe we are missing the point of what Paul is saying of himself in 1 Timothy when he says, "Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief". He also speaks of himself like this in the present tense in Romans 7:14, "I am carnal, sold under sin".

He is not sanctioning a life of defeat but rather in both cases I believe that he is saying that after serving God faithfully for so many years and suffering so many hardships he, the great Apostle, still needs the grace of God as much as ever. His old nature is not improved and he is still completely dependent on God's undeserved love.

In Christ,

Ron


_________________
Ron Halverson

 2007/7/25 9:25Profile
PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

To me, I see the context being plain that he's talking about his past.

1Ti 1:12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;
1Ti 1:13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
1Ti 1:14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
1Ti 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
1Ti 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.


Besides, that verse says that Paul was the chief, or the top one, that was saved! He came to save sinners and Paul was the biggest sinner saved.

Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.


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Josh Parsley

 2007/7/25 10:17Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.



Amen!

But are you holding to the doctrine of sinless perfection now. Which, all of Jesses recent posts have been aimed that way since the fatal trap of holiness article.

In Christ - Jim

 2007/7/25 10:21
HomeFree89
Member



Joined: 2007/1/21
Posts: 797
Indiana

 Re:

How about this verse: Ro 7:24 "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" I have talked with this guy about sanctification and he keeps bringing up this verse and says that it was present-tense and that Paul still sinned. What do you all think?

Jordan


_________________
Jordan

 2007/7/25 10:33Profile





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