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 Re:

Sometimes I think it to ones disadvantage to know much about church history and doctrines of others such as Calvin, Spurgeon and Whitfield. With no disrepect to any of them, these men are not where our hope lies although they are legends of the faith. The Apostle Peter, Paul, and the other writers under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit did not know all their doctrine and they had no trouble proclaiming God's Word to others. That same SPIRIT is available to us through Christ and we not only have the Old Testament Scriptures but the New Testament as well which is much more than Jeremiah had.

As Terry Bradshaw said once before the Super Bowl game.
" When you go to the big dance, You dance with the one that brung ye"
Jesus brung us.
John 1:1
John 1:14

Mark 7:7-9
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
KJV

 2007/7/25 12:42
HomeFree89
Member



Joined: 2007/1/21
Posts: 797
Indiana

 Re:

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

There is no need to label ourselves to fit a certain doctrinal stance. This only leads to division amongst believers.

If you read throught the Gospels you'll see that Jesus didn't spend much time on doctrine, He taught about what it meant to walk with Him and how to be His disciple.

Jordan

Here is an excellent article:


The True Gospel And The False - Zac Poonen


Christians are generally speaking, categorized into two groups as follows:



(1) "Roman Catholics" and "Protestants" - depending on birth.
(2) "Episcopal" (conformist) and "Free church" (non-conformist) - depending on church-pattern.
(3) "Born again Christians" and "Nominal Christians" - depending on an "experience";
(4) "Evangelicals" and "Liberals" - depending on doctrine.
(5) "Charismatics" and "Non-charismatics" - depending on "speaking in tongues".
(6) "Full-time Christian workers" and "Secular workers" - depending on profession.
There could be other such categorizations too. But none of these categorizations deal with the root of the problem that our Lord came to solve.

Many know that "Christ died for our sins" (1 Cor.15:3). But many do not know that the Bible says that Christ also died "that we should no longer live for ourselves but for Him" (2 Cor.5:15).

A more Scriptural way of categorizing Christians therefore would be as follows: "Those who live for themselves" and "Those who live for Christ"; or "Those who seek their own" and "Those who seek the things of Christ" or "Those who seek earthly things first" and "Those who seek the kingdom of God first"; or "Those who love money" and "Those who love God". (Jesus said it was impossible to love both -Lk.16:13)

But I have never heard of such a categorization being used. This categorization deals with the Christian's inner life and private walk with God, whereas the methods mentioned earlier deal with the external details of his life. Yet it is in this latter way that heaven categorizes Christians. And if that be the case, then this is the only categorization that matters! In this method, others cannot categorize us. We have to categorize ourselves - for no one but we ourselves know our inner motivations and desires. Even our wives may not be aware what we are living for.

Our Lord did not come primarily to give people a doctrine, or a church-pattern or to make them speak in tongues or even to give them an experience!

He came to "save us from sin". He came to lay the axe to the root of the tree. And the root of sin is : Being centered in ourselves, seeking our own and doing our own will. If we do not permit the Lord to axe and uproot this "root" from our lives, we will be Christians only superficially. Satan may however deceive us into imagining that we belong to a higher class than other Christians, because of our doctrine or our experience or our church-pattern!

Satan doesn't care even if we have the right doctrine, experience and church-pattern, so long as we continue to "live for ourselves" (This, by the way, is just another phrase for "living in sin"!!). Christendom today is filled with Christians who seek their own and live for themselves, who are yet convinced that God views them as superior to other Christians, merely because of doctrinal differences or church-pattern or "experiences". This shows what a great work Satan has succeeded in doing in Christendom.

In John 6:38, our Lord said that He came from heaven to earth:
(1) To deny His human will (that He had acquired, when He came to earth as a Man), and (2) To do the will of His Father, as a Man. Thereby He became our example.

Throughout Jesus' earthly life -- during all His 331/2; years - He denied his own will and did His Father's will. And He told His disciples clearly that those who wanted to be His disciples would have to go the same way. He came to hit at the root of sin in our lives - "doing our own will" - and to deliver us from that.

In the realm of science, for thousands of years, man made the mistake of imagining that the earth was the center of the universe. It looked like that to human eyes - because the sun, moon and stars did indeed appear to be revolving around the earth once every 24 hours. It took the courage of a man like Copernicus to question this popular notion, just about 450 years ago, and to show that it was utterly false and that the earth was not even the center of the solar system, leave alone the universe. The earth, he showed was created to be centered in the sun. As long as man had the wrong center, his scientific calculations and deductions were wrong - because his center was wrong. But once man discovered the right center, then these calculations and deductions turned out right.

It is the same with us when we remain "self-centered" instead of being "God-centered". Our understanding of the Bible and of God's perfect will (our calculations and deductions) will then be wrong. But just as men were convinced for over 5000 years that they were right (as we saw above), we too may imagine that we are right! But actually, we will be 100% wrong.

This is what we see even among many "good Christians" today. They have so many different interpretations of the same Bible - and yet each one is convinced that his interpretation alone is right and everyone else's is wrong. The others, they will say are "deceived". Why is this so? Because they've got their center wrong.

Man was created to be centered in God and not in himself. And when Christians have got their center wrong, their "gospel" will be wrong too. Basically, there are only two gospels being preached today - one man-centered and the other God-centered.

The man-centered gospel promises man that God will give him everything he needs to make his life on earth comfortable and will also give him a seat in heaven at the end of his life. Man is told that Jesus will forgive all his sins, heal all his diseases, bless and prosper him materially, solve all his earthly problems, etc., etc.

Self still remains at the center of such a man's life, and God revolves around him - as his servant - to answer his every prayer and to give him whatever he wants!! All that he has to do is "believe" and "claim every material blessing in Jesus' Name"!!

This is a false gospel, because no mention is made of "repentance". Repentance is what John the Baptist, Jesus, Paul, Peter and all the apostles preached first of all. And repentance, unfortunately, is what is not preached today, even last of all!!

The God-centered gospel, on the other hand, calls upon man to repent. It explains that "repentance" means:

Turning FROM Self as the center of one's life, from doing one's own will, from walking along one's self-chosen way, from loving money, and from loving the world and the things in the world (the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes and the pride of life), etc., and

Turning TO God, loving Him with one's whole heart, making Him the Centre of one's life and doing His will henceforth etc.,

Faith in Christ's death on the cross can forgive a man his sins only when he has repented. Then he can receive the power of the Holy Spirit empower him to deny himself daily so that he can live a God-centered life. This is the gospel that Jesus and the apostles preached.

The false gospel makes the gate wide and the way broad (easy to walk along, because one does not have to deny one's Self or stop living for one's own interests or stop seeking one's own gain). Millions attend meetings where such a false "gospel" is preached. And many enter through this gate and walk along this way, imagining that it leads to life. But it actually leads to destruction. The evangelists of this gospel however gloat in, and report about the large numbers of people who "raised their hands and made decisions for Christ" in their meetings!! But it is all a deception. Although some are indeed genuinely converted in such meetings, because of their sincerity, many such "converts" end up becoming "twofold children of hell" (Matt.23:15) - deceived about their true state.

The true gospel however, makes the gate small and the way narrow - not smaller or narrower than Jesus Himself made it, as some "super-spiritual" cultists do, but just the same size as Jesus made it. Few there be, that find this way to life. There is not much for the evangelists of this gospel to report about, and the statistics are not impressive. But this gospel leads people to the Lord Jesus and to heaven.

"Be careful how you listen. Whoever obeys what he has heard, to him more light and understanding will be given. But whoever does not obey what he has heard, even what light and understanding he thinks he has will be taken away from him." (Paraphrase of Luke 8:18).

He who has ears to hear, let him hear.


_________________
Jordan

 2007/7/25 13:23Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Brother hmmhmm I post this for your consideration, not to win you to a certain belief, but simply to give a defense of the hope that lies within. You have asked questions, and I will try to answer.

In response to your Spurgeon quote, I post this from a sermon called "The Death of Christ"

[i]They believe in an atonement made for every body; but then, their atonement is just this. They believe that Judas was atoned for just as much as Peter; they believe that the damned in hell were as much an object of Jesus Christ's satisfaction as the saved in heaven; and though they do not say it in proper words, yet they must mean it, for it is a fair inference, that in the case of multitudes, Christ died in vain, for he died for them all, they say; and yet so ineffectual was his dying for them, that though he died for them they are damned afterward. Now, such an atonement I despise—I reject it. I may be called Antinomian or Calvinist for preaching a limited atonement; but I had rather believe a limited atonement that is efficacious for all men for whom it was intended, than an universal atonement that is not efficacious for anybody, except the will of man be joined with it. Why, my brethren, if we were only so far atoned for by the death of Christ that any one of us might afterward save himself, Christ's atonement were not worth a farthing, for there is no man of us can save himself—no, not under the gospel; for if I am to be saved by faith, if that faith is to be my own act, unassisted by the Holy Spirit, I am as unable to save myself by faith as to save myself by good works. And after all, though men call this a limited atonement, it is as effectual as their own fallacious and rotten redemptions can pretend to be. But do you know the limit of it? Christ hath bought a "multitude that no man can number." The limit of it is just this: He hath died for sinners; whoever in this congregation inwardly and sorrowfully knows himself to be a sinner, Christ died for him; whoever seeks Christ, shall know Christ died for him; for our sense of need of Christ, and our seeking after Christ, are infallible proofs that Christ died for us. And, mark, here is something substantial.[/i]

Now, I firmly and most vehemently believe that one drop of the blood of Christ is enough to save galaxy upon galaxy of men. However, this blood will not be applied to all so that all are saved. Here is where there is a huge difference in the Arminian and Calvinist thoughts, for the Arminian limits the "sufficiency", while Calvinists limit its "efficiency".

No matter what we think, we must come to grips with the fact that men perish. So we must ask why? Some will say unbelief, and that is fair. Yet if the death of Christ was for all mens' sins equally, is not unbelief a sin? And yet the man for whom Christ died is now in Hell though his penalty was paid?

This most definitley would make God unjust, to demand double payment, both from Christ, and from the man himself. If this were done in our courts there would be immediate uprising.

So how do we reconcile this?

If all sins of all men are covered, and paid for, then none will perish. Even those who die in unbelief. Or there must be some limit to the extent of Chris't payment.


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/7/25 13:45Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re: All Christians Are Calvinist When They're on Their Knees.

Quote:
Abe_Juliot wrote:

"Oh God! Please save my little sister. I ask that you would do every thing that you can do to save her. But... Oh God, I know that she has to make the right choice of her free will, before you can have mercy on her. So, Lord I pray that you would do your part and be patient with her, so she could make the right decision and let you have mercy on her. Oh God, I pray that she would make the right decision to get a new heart... But, oh God I know that you can't cause the new birth. She has to choose it and cooperate with you. So, I pray that she would make the right choice, so you can have mercy on her. But... Oh God, I know that only she can answer that prayer. For God, you can't have mercy on anyone unless they do something first. And God, you would never cause her to approach you... because that would violate her freewill. Oh God, your so merciful!"


Oh God! Please save my little sister. I ask that you would do every thing that you can do to save her. But... Oh God, I know that she will or will not make the right choice because she has no free will, it only depends on if you love her or not. So, Lord I it does not matter if I pray or not because I can not sway you or move your heart, so you would you save her. Oh God, Your will is set in stone from the foundation of the Earth... But, oh God I know that you it doesn't matter if I pray or not, you will do what you will. She can not choose and cooperate with you. So because you conemnd her because of what Adam did, I am pray only because you tell me to, for who knows what reason, no one knows. But... Oh God, I know that only You will answer this prayer only if you pre-ordaind it. For God, you will not have mercy on anyone unless you pre-ordaind by election. And God, you would never cause her to approach you if you did'nt elkect her because you hate her... because that would violate your sovernty if any one could choose. Oh God, your so merciful?

Oh, God I thank you that you didn't elect my brother, so that you could show your power in him. Thank you for shedding your blood, only for few so that many of your creation that you hate will burn for ever. God, I thank you that I'm not like other men who heard the gospel and can not submitt, because I am of the elite... who didn't want to make the right decision to get born-again, but you made me do it anyway. I thank you that you brainwashed the right decision in to me to get born-again. Thanks God, for electing me. It's a good thing that you didn'y elect by brother who is burning in hell because you did'nt want him with you. For you would never let people have freewill Oh God, you're so merciful?"

(Please understand, I'm not mocking the way somebody prays or making fun of someone. I don't think any true spirit-filled Christian would ever pray like this... Arminian or Calvinist.
How ever this is the logical extent to calvism)

 2007/7/25 13:47Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Also here are some Scriptures to look at

The atonement of Christ is effective
To justify
Isa 53:11 [the single effective cause of justification in view here is the bearing of iniquities; all whose iniquities Christ bore must be justified]; Rom 8:34 [the argument here is that the fact of Christ's death, resurrection, and intercession is in itself an incontrovertibly effective reason for non-condemnation; if this verse is true, then no one for whom Christ died and was raised to intercede may be condemned]

To redeem and cleanse from sins
Eph 5:25-27; Tit 2:14

To propitiate the Father
1John 2:2 [“propitiation” means “the turning away or appeasement of wrath”; therefore, by definition, the Father has no more wrath against those whose sins have been propitiated]; 1John 4:10

To raise to new life
2Cor 5:14-15 [the argument is a simple “if/then” proposition: “if” Christ died for someone, “then,” with no other conditions, that person died with him and was raised again]; 1Pet 3:18
[See also, “Jesus' death purchased for his people a new heart; – faith; – repentance”. Jesus died in order to establish the New Covenant (Mat. 26:26-29, etc.); the New Covenant promised faith, repentance and knowledge of God (Jer. 31:33-34, Ez. 36:26-27, etc.); therefore, Jesus died in order to provide faith, repentance, and knowledge of God, as the fulfillment of a unilateral promise. This means that his death had a definite purpose which was intended for some and not others. His death effectively purchased faith; not all have faith; and so his death had an effective intent that was limited to certain persons.]

Those whom God purposed to redeem include all who believe
John 3:16

From every nation
Rev 5:9
From every class
Gal 3:28; 1Tim 2:1-6 [the first “all men” is explicitly tied to all classes of men, which gives warrant for understanding the second “all men” in the same way]

Therefore, Christ's saving work is commonly spoken of in terms of “all,” “world,” etc.

John 1:29; Tit 2:11-14 [in the context of “all men” is the delimiting concept of a peculiar people, zealous of good works]; Heb 2:9-10 [notice that the many sons whom Christ brings to glory gives a contextual delimiter to the term “every”]; 2Pet 3:9 [note that this desire is explicitly limited to “us” (Peter was writing to fellow-believers) in the context]; 1John 2:2 [propitiation means “appeasement of wrath”; either Jesus appeases God's wrath against all, and therefore hell (which is the place where God's wrath resides) is non-existent; or the “whole world” means something different than “every individual who ever lived”. See John 11:51-52, and “The word 'world' is often used in the sense of 'many,' or 'all of a set'”]

The word “all” is often used to indicate all of a set, or even many representatives of a set
Mat 10:22; 1Cor 6:12; 1Cor 15:22; Mat 2:3; John 4:29; Act 10:39; Act 17:21; Act 21:28; Act 26:4

Or, to indicate all “classes” or “nations,” not all individuals
Mat 5:11; Act 2:17; Act 10:12

The word “world” is often used in the sense of “many,” or “all of a set”
Luk 2:1-2; John 6:33; John 12:19; Act 19:27; Rom 1:8

Additional reasons that the atonement of Christ is not for all the sins of all people

God punishes people in hell, which would be unjust if their sins were atoned for
Mark 9:43-44

If one were to say, “their sins are atoned for, but that atonement is not applied because of unbelief,” he fails to realize that unbelief is likewise a sin
Heb 3:12

[“The Father imposed His wrath due unto, and the Son underwent punishment for either:

1) All the sins of all men;
2) All the sins of some men; or
3) Some of the sins of all men.

In which case it may be said:
1) If the last be true all men have some sins to answer for, and so none are saved;

2) That if the second be true, then Christ, in their stead suffered for all the sins of the elect in the whole world, and this is the truth;

3) But if the first is the case, why are not all men free from the punishment due unto their sins? You answer, Because of unbelief. I ask, Is this unbelief a sin, or is it not? If it be, then Christ suffered the punishment due unto it, or He did not. If He did, why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which He died? If He did not, He did not die for all their sins!” – John Owen, The Death of Death in the Death of Christ]

God bears eternal wrath against people, which by definition means that his wrath against them has not been propitiated [appeased]
1The 2:16; 2The 1:6-9

[i]-Nathan Pitchford of monergism.com[/i]


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/7/25 13:50Profile
LoveHim
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Joined: 2007/6/14
Posts: 562
Indiana, US

 Re:

Quote:
I realise this post will not change many of your convictions, but I believe someone will read this and realize that it is time to progress to higher grades in God's academy.

thank you brother for this. i am feeling the Lord speak this to my heart. thank you for obeying the Lord.

 2007/7/25 14:06Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

roaringlamb wrote:

Quote:
“The Father imposed His wrath due unto, and the Son underwent punishment for either:

1) All the sins of all men;
2) All the sins of some men; or
3) Some of the sins of all men.

In which case it may be said:
1) If the last be true all men have some sins to answer for, and so none are saved;

2) That if the second be true, then Christ, in their stead suffered for all the sins of the elect in the whole world, and this is the truth;

3) But if the first is the case, why are not all men free from the punishment due unto their sins? You answer, Because of unbelief. I ask, Is this unbelief a sin, or is it not? If it be, then Christ suffered the punishment due unto it, or He did not. If He did, why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which He died? If He did not, He did not die for all their sins!” – John Owen, The Death of Death in the Death of Christ]

God bears eternal wrath against people, which by definition means that his wrath against them has not been propitiated [appeased]

One must take advantage of the Atonement in order for the effect to take place.

Ye are save by [i]Atonement[/i] through faith(opposite of unbelief) and that not of yourself...

If on has faith, then, his sins along with the prior unbelief will be atoned for.

If one remains in unbelief, that one is not appropriating the atonement to him self, therefore, the sin of unbelief is not covered along with all the rest.

 2007/7/25 14:47Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
If one remains in unbelief, that one is not appropriating the atonement to him self, therefore, the sin of unbelief is not covered along with all the rest.



So how does a man come to see his need of the atonement?

Also, doesn't your view limit the atonement too?


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/7/25 14:52Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

roaringlamb wrote:

Quote:
Quote:
If one remains in unbelief, that one is not appropriating the atonement to him self, therefore, the sin of unbelief is not covered along with all the rest.

So how does a man come to see his need of the atonement?

The Law is our schoolmaster that brings us to Christ.

[b]b1Tim 1:8-10[/b] [color=993300] But we know that the law is good, if a man uses it lawfully;
[b]:9[/b] Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
[b]:10[/b] For fornicators, for homosexuals, for slave traders, for liars, for perjurers, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;[/color]

The law is used to show the need of salvaition

Quote:
Also, doesn't your view limit the atonement too?

Limits to only those who do not want it.

You limit it to who can not have it.

I put the blaim on man, you put the blaim on God.

 2007/7/25 15:01Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

But, people speak poorly of limited atonement when it is linked to God, yet when man is the one making the limitation it's ok?

So, if the atonement is limited by unbelief, why then do many say it is for everyone?

It cannot be, for either all are saved because all sin is forgiven, or it is limited right?


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/7/25 15:11Profile





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