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 Re:

Quote:
but i also wonder how do you as a person that belive in this doctrine, how do you pray? do you ever pray for a lost person? even when you know(if you belive so) that your prayer will never do anything except God choose that person you happend to pray fore? if not are your prayers just wasted? I really wonder how you view that issue?



That's a Great question. I used to wonder about that also, when I was more Arminian.
I used pray and hope that the person I was praying for would do something... so that God could do something.

Now, I just get on my knees and beg God do a miracle that only He can do. And I've seen miracle's from God. I've seen people nearly faint under conviction. I've seen people weep in mournful repentance after hearing the gospel. It's not something I can manipulate or cause... Only God can do this miracle of Convincing of Sin and Regeneration. So, I plead with Him to do it. God answers our prayers. But, He is still sovereign and none else.

Also, I haven't lost my zeal to win souls since God taught me the Doctrines of Grace. The only thing I lost, was fleshly motivations and skills. I've been driven to preach... Because I know that God has elected a people out of every tribe, tongue, and nation. ...And God will quicken them through the fooolishness of preaching the gospel.

My motivation is God's glory.

Or, a better question... How did these men pray? Did they ever pray for a lost person?

John Owen, George Whitfield, Jonathan Edwards, Charles Spurgeon.

My dear brother, I have yet to hear of a men who preached like Whitfield. It was rare that he preached without tears in his eyes.

I can tell you very simply how my prayers have been affected by the doctrines of Grace. My hope is in God. I know that only God God can save. So, I plead with God. I don't understand the mystery of intercession and God's sovereignty. Study George Mueller's life of prayer.
[url=http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Biographies/1531_George_Muellers_Strategy_for_Showing_God/]George Mueller[/url]


Study David Brainerd's Life of prayer.
http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/product?item_no=09766&netp_id=102558&event=ESRCN&item_code=WW


Also, dear brother... you asked if I pray for a lost person? I'm am poor at this compared to some of these men above. But, I desire to be filled with God's intercessions. By God's grace, I've experienced it to greater degrees lately. It had nothing to do with me. It had everything to do with God and His grace working in me. I will say this, I've been weeping more lately. Because, I am struck down by the greatness of God's mercy upon the greatness of my sin. I was a murderer. I wanted to kill Jesus himself. I continually cursed God with my thought, words, and deeds. I was in the multitude of scoffers that day! I cried out against Him, "Crucify Him! Pierce Him! Come down from the cross and save yourself Jesus! I will not have this man to reign over me!"

He has had mercy on me! He has set His love upon me! He has freed me from my sin. I am my beloved's, and his desire is toward me! Let him kiss me with the kisses of his mouth: for His love is better than wine!


Dear brother's and sister's, I want you to read this blog from my journal. Be encouraged to pray for souls.

Somebody Please Help Me Pray for My Children
The Preaching Journal of Abraham Juliot
Jan 25, 2007 11:58 PM
I went witnessing today. God really worked. He led me to people that where really open and ready to hear the gospel. It's a rare thing to find someone who quickly realizes they are a guilty sinner in desperate need of mercy, yet no one has ever took the time to preach the whole gospel to them. It makes me want to weep and sob. The thought, that there are billions of people in bondage to sin (against our Lord Jesus)... ought to bring great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. They love death, for they hate God! Should we not weep? There are so many people going to hell. I find that when I pray for people as if they are my own child, I am seriously grieved for them. I shared with around 10 people today. I imagine that they are my own children. That means 10 of my children are on their way to hell... 10 of my children are in bondage to sin!... 10 of my children are not walking with God! Oh, I imagine them when they where younger, maybe 5 years old... at an age that I could be a father or a nurse to them. I have 5 girls and 5 boys, dead in sin and going to hell! I cannot help but weep. Somebody please help me pray!

Jer 6:26 O daughter of my people, gird thee with sackcloth, and wallow thyself in ashes: make thee mourning, as for an only son, most bitter lamentation: for the spoiler shall suddenly come upon us.

Jer 9:1 Oh that my head were waters, and mine eyes a fountain of tears, that I might weep day and night for the slain of the daughter of my people!

Jer 14:17 Therefore thou shalt say this word unto them; Let mine eyes run down with tears night and day, and let them not cease: for the virgin daughter of my people is broken with a great breach, with a very grievous blow.

1Th 2:7 But we were gentle among you, even as a nurse cherisheth her children:

1Th 2:11 As ye know how we exhorted and comforted and charged every one of you, as a father doth his children,


God bless you! Abraham

 2007/7/25 7:17
hmmhmm
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Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
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 Re:

i just think you calvanists make God so small,

my God is powerful and sovereign and can save sinners to the uttermost who repent and believe in the eternal almighty Gods son.

it grives me deeply people ignore so much scriptures, just for a "doctrine"





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CHRISTIAN

 2007/7/25 7:51Profile
hmmhmm
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Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
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 Re:

Quote:

Dear brother Abraham,

I feel in my heart that I need to share with you something about this, and your recent threads. So take this in love.

You don't need this brother, you don't need it.
You don't need it, we don't this kind of labeling - Calvinists-Arminianists.
I assume and believe that you have honest heart for the Lord, but in order to enter into deep fellowship with the Holy Spirit we need brother to quit from this bondage of doctrines.

The description on this section of the forums says:
"Test everything, Hold on to the good." - 1 Thess 5:21. Here you will find discussions on all different scriptures and theological positions. Please discuss with an spirit of edification not dissention or strife.

And this is very poor way of fellowshipping of the saints of God, labeling with man's names.
Maybe you think that your theology is life or death important, but brother please realize that you may be in bondage to it.

Please realize that devil is greatest theologian from all of us, and is still devil.

What we need is LIFE, we need life from God, we need Spirit filled life, life is above doctrines and theology. The last can brought death.

I like Spurgeon on this:

"So my theological friend over there,
who knows so much that he can split hairs over doctrines-
it does not matter what you think, or what you know,
unless it leads you to glorify God, and to be thankful.
No, your knowledge may be a millstone about your neck to
sink you down to eternal woe, unless your knowledge is
turned to holy practice. "

And brother Ravenhill:

"Your doctrine can be as straight as a gun barrel-and just as empty!"

"You can have all of your doctrines right, yet still not have the presence of God."

Most of our preachers need to get free from their denomination, you go to church, what do you hear?
Do you meet God, or do you meet your church's theology, you meet your church's doctrine?
How often you go and come out breathing, and gasping - God The Holy Ghost was at that meeting and I absolutely shaken to my feet?

I believe this is the heart, and this should be the heart of our fellowshipping here.
We need the LIFE of Christ to flow from our lives, not the doctrine of Calvin or Arminia.

And when that LIFE is flowing out of us, it cannot went unrecognized! It is holy fragrant!

I am very sad, seeing that from many of the Calvinists their doctrine is their god, because they are in bondage to it and it flows out are just words of death. We need freedom from this!

I have heard labels to Spurgeon as Calvinist.
Brother, I love this Calvinist!

Because I have never read this man to preach Calvin or forcing some doctrine. But I have seen this man preaching Christ. I have seen Jesus in this man. I have seen tears, travail, call for repentance, call for love to Christ, I have seen such burden for lost souls that is so rarely, I have seen cry for the lost. This man has been sold out to Jesus and in bondage to Jesus, not to doctrine. I like his 'doctrine'.

I believe also that to be free from theological and doctrinal bondage you need death. As to every other matter. But everything begins from the death to self.

I posted this in the other thread, let me post it again, because really touches the heart of what I want to express here:

"There is today no lack of Bible teachers to set forth correctly the principles of the doctrines of Christ, but too many of these seem satisfied to teach the fundamentals oft he faith year after year, strangely unaware that there is in their ministry no manifest Presence, nor anything unusual in their personal lives. They minister constantly to believers who feel within their breasts a longing which their teaching simply does not satisfy. I trust I speak in charity, but the lack in our pulpits is real. Milton's terrible sentence applies to our day as accurately as it did to his: `The hungry sheep look up, and are not fed.'
It is a solemn thing, and no small scandal in the Kingdom, to see God's children starving while actually seated at the Father's table. The truth of Wesley's words is established before our eyes: `Orthodoxy, or right opinion, is, at best, a very slender part of religion. Though right tempers cannot subsist without right opinions,yet right opinions may subsist without right tempers. There may be a right opinion of God without either love or one right temper toward Him. Satan is proof of this.'

Thanks to our splendid Bible societies and to other effective agencies for the dissemination of the Word, there are today many millions of people who hold `right opinions,' probably more than ever before in the history of the Church.Yet I wonder if there was ever a time when true spiritual worship was ever a time when true spiritual worship was at a lower ebb. To great sections of the Church the art of worship has been lost entirely, and in its place has come that strange and foreign thing called the `program.' This word has been borrowed from the stage and applied with sad wisdom to the type of public service which now passes for worship among us.

Sound Bible exposition is an imperative must in the Church of the living God. Without it no church can be a New Testament church in any strict meaning of that term. But exposition may be carried on in such way as to leave the hearers devoid of any true spiritual nourishment whatever. For it is not mere words that nourish the soul, but God Himself, and unless and until the hearers find God in personal experience, they are not the better for having heard the truth. The Bible is not an end in itself, but a means to bring men to an intimate and satisfying knowledge of God, that they may enter into Him, that they may delight in His Presence, may taste and know the inner sweetness of the very God Himself in the core and center of their hearts."
-A. W. Tozer Chicago, Ill. June 16, 1948.
(From the Preface of The Pursuit of God)




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CHRISTIAN

 2007/7/25 7:53Profile
Nile
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Joined: 2007/3/28
Posts: 403
Raleigh, NC

 Re:

Quote:

hmmhmm wrote:
i just think you calvanists make God so small,

my God is powerful and sovereign and can save sinners to the uttermost who repent and believe in the eternal almighty Gods son.

it grives me deeply people ignore so much scriptures, just for a "doctrine"



Another thing I notice, is that no one is born a Calvinist. We all have an intuitive God-given idea that we freely make choices. I never would have thought that God *arbitrarily* chooses who goes to heaven and hell unless I had heard it from other men.

I do believe God chooses, ordains, foreknows, and predestines those who go to heaven: They are the ones who believe in Jesus Christ and repent of sin.

An Armenian,
Nile


_________________
Matthew Miskiewicz

 2007/7/25 8:14Profile









 Re:

All christians are christians when they are on their knees... all children of the devil are still children of the devil when they are on their knees. I fear for many (not thinking of anyone in this thread) who spend so much time and effort arguing theology instead of walking in the reality of the kingdom of God.

I will not be labeled a 'calvinist' or 'arminean'.. both of these will perish along with many who hold to both theologies.

In Christ - Jim

 2007/7/25 8:31
running2win
Member



Joined: 2007/5/15
Posts: 231
Bowmansville Penssylvania USA

 Re:

It seems to me that when someone, either calvinist or arminean, places so much emphasis on their doctrine and becomes unwaveringly loyal to their doctrinal camp then something is [b]WAAAAAAAY[/b] out of balance. I hear people talk about Spurgeon, Calvin, Whitefield, etc. but let me say that the secret of their christian life was [b]ABSOLUTELY NOT IN THE FACT THAT THEY WERE CALVINISTS[/b] and neither was Wesley's in the fact that he was in the other camp. So Spurgeon was the prince of preachers. Well, Wesley won more souls to God. 2+2=5???????!!!!!!!
But Wesley's doctrine was [b]DAMNABLE HERESY![/b] or so some would like us to think. Did Spurgeon preach to fix everyone's bad doctrine? Not at all, he preached to bring souls to Christ. The same with Edwards, Whitefield, you name the giants of the faith and I can assure you they weren't out to make disciples of Calvin, they were out to make christians in the best way they knew how. Give me a man who is turning this world upside down for God and I'll ask him what God has done for him. Not what his doctrinal party is.
People love and are loyal to their doctrine even at the expense of a brother or sister in Christ in these kinds of discussions. I don't think it ought to be that way.
Rather than arguing that Wesley was arminiest or Whitefield was calvinist we'd be much better off getting on the floor and crying "God, make my life like that of Whitefield and Wesley!!!!"



[edit] Very well said Jim. That's how I see the matter as well.


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Jeff Mollman

 2007/7/25 9:03Profile
crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 A more excellent way

Dr. Tozer's & Spurgeon Advice

'I was preparing to go to Nyack College. Before I left there was one burning question I had in mind, and I went to Dr. Tozer and said, “Could you give me some advice concerning the problem of Calvinism versus Arminianism?”
And I’ll never forget the advice he gave me. At the time I thought it was rather inconclusive and not too helpful. But I listened carefully. He said, “My son, when you get to college you’re going to find that all of the boys will be gathered in a room discussing and arguing over Arminianism and Calvinism night after night after night. I’ll tell you what to do, Cliff. Go to your room and meet God. At the end of four years you’ll be way down the line and they’ll still be where they started, because greater minds than yours have wrestled with this problem and have not come up with satisfactory conclusions. Instead, learn to know God.”'
-Cliff Westergren

[url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=6139&forum=36&post_id=&refresh=Go]Dr. Tozer's & Spurgeon Advice[/url]


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Mike Balog

 2007/7/25 9:35Profile
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Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4499


 Re: A more excellent way

Thanks Mike! That is some wonderfully convicting (and much needed) advice!

:-)


_________________
Christopher

 2007/7/25 9:38Profile
PaulWest
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Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re: A Better Way

I believe a true sign of Christian maturity comes when a believer can finally reconcile this Calvin/Arminian discrepancy to [i]his or herself[/i], and not feel compelled to draw others into the ring. The wisest men of God knew to avoid it, because such debates are quite unwinable. Believers who wrangle over this topic and use certain scriptures to prove their point are actually spinning their wheels in a mud pit. The engine is screaming, scripture is flying, lots of noise and power and fuel expenditure...but in the end you go nowhere. You're no closer to the destination than when you first put the key in the ignition and turned the engine on.

I believe Tozer was right: We need to get past the urge to participate in these fruitless debates and instead go after God with a single eye. We need to avoid the pits in the road, brethen.

All of us are at points where we are receiving light from the Word. Some of us have more light than others, because more Word has entered in. I can [i]guarantee [/i] that your current theological leanings will change somewhat as more light is imparted to your soul in the future. The trivialities that charmed you in third grade will be forgotten by the time you're in high school -- in fact, you'll look back and see much of it was quite infantile and pointless.

I bless God for the example of Wesley and Whitefield. These two men were not on opposite ends of a theological spectrum by chance. God knew what He was doing, whom he was choosing. He was setting a profound example with these two brothers, showing His ways are so far above and beyond our mortal understandings. Let us therefore get our vessels unstuck and go after God. I realise this post will not change many of your convictions, but I believe someone will read this and realize that it is time to progress to higher grades in God's academy.

Brother Paul


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2007/7/25 10:24Profile









 Re:

Very well spoken Mike and Paul... I think your comments should be copy-pasted into every new thread that pops up related to this matter.

In Christ - Jim

 2007/7/25 10:33





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