| All Christians Are Calvinist When They're on Their Knees.|
Go and pray for souls with your Arminian brother. You'll see what I mean.
I have never heard an Arminian brother pray like this...
"Oh God! Please save my little sister. I ask that you would do every thing that you can do to save her. But... Oh God, I know that she has to make the right choice of her free will, before you can have mercy on her. So, Lord I pray that you would do your part and be patient with her, so she could make the right decision and let you have mercy on her. Oh God, I pray that she would make the right decision to get a new heart... But, oh God I know that you can't cause the new birth. She has to choose it and cooperate with you. So, I pray that she would make the right choice, so you can have mercy on her. But... Oh God, I know that only she can answer that prayer. For God, you can't have mercy on anyone unless they do something first. And God, you would never cause her to approach you... because that would violate her freewill. Oh God, your so merciful!
Oh, God I thank you that I elected You, so that you could have mercy on me. Thank you for shedding your blood, so that I could let you have mercy on me. God, I thank you that I'm not like other men who heard the gospel... who haven't made the right decision to get born-again. I thank you that I made the right decision to get born-again. Thanks God, for electing me. It's a good thing that I let you do it. For you would never violate my freewill and regenerate me without my permission. Oh God, you're so merciful."
(Please understand, I'm not mocking the way somebody prays or making fun of someone. I don't think any true spirit-filled Christian would ever pray like this... Arminian or Calvinist.)
Rather, I hear prayers like the following one from my precious Arminian Brothers.
"Oh God, have mercy on my little sister!(1Ti 1:13, Tit 3:5) Cause her to approach you Lord Jesus! (Psa 65:4) Oh, thank you God, for having mercy upon me! (Rom 7:24, Rom 9:18) I Thank you God for taking away the stony heart that was in me and freely giving me a new heart of flesh! (Eze 36:25-32) I Thank you God for mercifully granting me repentance to the acknowledging of the truth. (2Ti 2:25, Act 5:31, Act 11:18) Oh, thank you God for the gift of tears! Thank you for birthing in me godly sorrow that works repentance to salvation. (2Co 7:10) Thank you for being merciful to me a sinner! (Lk 18:13)Thank you for your power that mercifully made me willing to come!" (Psa 110:3)
That's Calvinism. So maybe we're all calvinist. However, like me... many started out a confused calvinist. (Preaching like an Arminian and praying like a Calvinist.)
There's an important lesson that should be learned from these 2 prayers.
1. The theology of the First prayer is... "Lord, if I will, I can make myself clean."
1a. The heart of the First prayer is... "God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican." (Lk 18:11)
2. The theology of the Second prayer is... "Lord, if You will, You can make me clean."(see Luke 5:12)
2a. The heart of the Second prayer is... "God be merciful to me a sinner." (Lk 18:13)
One hopes in the ability of the flesh (which is in bondage to an unwilling heart). And the other hopes in the ability of God (Who alone can free us from the bondage of an unwilling heart).
One is Man-centered and the other is God-centerd.
God bless you! -Abraham
Purpose for writting this: The gospel you preach and your walk with the LORD is affected by doctrine. Doctrine should be discussed and reasoned out of the scriptures. We should not avoid studying doctrine or correcting false doctrines (though it may offend some). See Pro 4:2, Jn 7:16-17, Act 2:42, Rom 6:17, 1Ti 1:3; 1:10, 1Ti 4:1, 1Ti 4:13-16, 2Ti 4:2, 2Jn 1:9. Please understand that the purpose of this thread was to direct us to God-centered intercession and God-centered living. If you don't want to talk about it, you don't have to. This is a very serious topic. The gospel that you preach is entirely affected on your view concerning these doctrines. One might be offended when a differing view is posted, But that is not my intention. "Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!" (Psalm 133:1) I don't desire that my brother walk in doctrinal errors. I don't want to argue with anyone. I wrote the Edit Additions to endeavour to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. Please understand, I love my Arminian brothers and sisters. I live in a sheepfold with a majority of Arminians and Semi-Pelegians. I have blessed fellowship with those who know the LORD, though we disagree on these doctrines. The first prayer is ment to be a comparison to the second. It's not ment to ridicule someone. The point is, none of us should pray like this. I'm not saying that you pray like this. I'm only stating Arminian/Semi-Pelegian theology in the first prayer. I have never heard a Born-again Christian pray like this. Catholics and Mormons might pray like this. There are cults who might pray like this. They hold similar views (in opposotion to "the Doctrines of Grace") and we both know the devil is behind their belief system. They are nearly hand in hand with Pelagianism.
Also, some may not have any idea what is being dicussed, or what "the Doctrines of Grace" are and why they are nick-named "Calvinism". So, I would encourage you to study the matter and then post a response or start a new thread on what the Lord has taught you through His Word. I'm interested in hearing opposing views and reasoning from the scriptures... please avoid arguments or word fights.
Here's a link for anyone who want's to study the matter.
Thread: Study Calvinism
(2nd Edit. Sentence structure corrections, thought clarification, and minor spell checks all in the "Edit Additions" section)
| 2007/7/24 22:54|
| Re: All Christians Are Calvinist When They're on Their Knees.|
I am assuming that you don't mean to offend us. So I am trying very hard to give you the benefit of the doubt.
I was a Calvinist for 3 years. THEN I realized that my understanding of the scriptures aligns with Arminianism. I only stayed Calvinist that long because all my church leaders were Calvinist and they kept giving me Calvinist books. They also kept me from seeking true holiness for those 3 years too.
I pray always that God will continue to give ways that the person can hear, give circumstances so that the person can be humbled, and all sorts of things. So I pray like an Arminian too.
| 2007/7/24 23:08||Profile|
| Re: All Christians Are Calvinist When They're on Their Knees.|
1 Corinthians 1:10-13 I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment. For it has been reported to me by Chloe's people that there is quarreling among you, my brothers. What I mean is that each one of you says, I follow Paul, or I follow Apollos, or I follow Cephas, or I follow Christ. Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?
| 2007/7/24 23:24||Profile|
| Re: All Christians Are Calvinist When They're on Their Knees.|
please tell me that was a joke. i am not an arminian and that was a horrible understanding of the freewill position.
Quote:no way brother, not even close. i refuse to be an arminian or a calvanist.
That's Calvinism. So maybe we're all calvinist.
here is a question for you..
since when does the fact that we who believe that God has allowed mankind to either accept or reject mean that we "hope in the ability of the flesh"?? if we are convicted by the Holy Spirit and place our faith (that God has given man) in Him for salvation, then we have nothing boast in of ourselves. why do most calvanist think that we boast of that so much?? salvation is totally something God does, but God has commanded that for salvation, the condition is that man repent of his sin and believe on Christ. man cannot make themselves born again and no one who believes in freewill would ever prefess that.
a man who cannot do anything except call for help and place his trust and faith in the rescuer has nothing of himself to boast in.. nothing.
| 2007/7/24 23:25||Profile|
| Re: All Christians Are Calvinist When They're on Their Knees.|
Dear brother Abraham,
I feel in my heart that I need to share with you something about this, and your recent threads. So take this in love.
You don't need this brother, you don't need it.
You don't need it, we don't this kind of labeling - Calvinists-Arminianists.
I assume and believe that you have honest heart for the Lord, but in order to enter into deep fellowship with the Holy Spirit we need brother to quit from this bondage of doctrines.
The description on this section of the forums says:
"Test everything, Hold on to the good." - 1 Thess 5:21. Here you will find discussions on all different scriptures and theological positions. Please discuss with an spirit of edification not dissention or strife.
And this is very poor way of fellowshipping of the saints of God, labeling with man's names.
Maybe you think that your theology is life or death important, but brother please realize that you may be in bondage to it.
Please realize that devil is greatest theologian from all of us, and is still devil.
What we need is LIFE, we need life from God, we need Spirit filled life, life is above doctrines and theology. The last can brought death.
I like Spurgeon on this:
"So my theological friend over there,
who knows so much that he can split hairs over doctrines-
it does not matter what you think, or what you know,
unless it leads you to glorify God, and to be thankful.
No, your knowledge may be a millstone about your neck to
sink you down to eternal woe, unless your knowledge is
turned to holy practice. "
And brother Ravenhill:
"Your doctrine can be as straight as a gun barrel-and just as empty!"
"You can have all of your doctrines right, yet still not have the presence of God."
Most of our preachers need to get free from their denomination, you go to church, what do you hear?
Do you meet God, or do you meet your church's theology, you meet your church's doctrine?
How often you go and come out breathing, and gasping - God The Holy Ghost was at that meeting and I absolutely shaken to my feet?
I believe this is the heart, and this should be the heart of our fellowshipping here.
We need the LIFE of Christ to flow from our lives, not the doctrine of Calvin or Arminia.
And when that LIFE is flowing out of us, it cannot went unrecognized! It is holy fragrant!
I am very sad, seeing that from many of the Calvinists their doctrine is their god, because they are in bondage to it and it flows out are just words of death. We need freedom from this!
I have heard labels to Spurgeon as Calvinist.
Brother, I love this Calvinist!
Because I have never read this man to preach Calvin or forcing some doctrine. But I have seen this man preaching Christ. I have seen Jesus in this man. I have seen tears, travail, call for repentance, call for love to Christ, I have seen such burden for lost souls that is so rarely, I have seen cry for the lost. This man has been sold out to Jesus and in bondage to Jesus, not to doctrine. I like his 'doctrine'.
I believe also that to be free from theological and doctrinal bondage you need death. As to every other matter. But everything begins from the death to self.
I posted this in the other thread, let me post it again, because really touches the heart of what I want to express here:
"There is today no lack of Bible teachers to set forth correctly the principles of the doctrines of Christ, but too many of these seem satisfied to teach the fundamentals oft he faith year after year, strangely unaware that there is in their ministry no manifest Presence, nor anything unusual in their personal lives. They minister constantly to believers who feel within their breasts a longing which their teaching simply does not satisfy. I trust I speak in charity, but the lack in our pulpits is real. Milton's terrible sentence applies to our day as accurately as it did to his: `The hungry sheep look up, and are not fed.'
It is a solemn thing, and no small scandal in the Kingdom, to see God's children starving while actually seated at the Father's table. The truth of Wesley's words is established before our eyes: `Orthodoxy, or right opinion, is, at best, a very slender part of religion. Though right tempers cannot subsist without right opinions,yet right opinions may subsist without right tempers. There may be a right opinion of God without either love or one right temper toward Him. Satan is proof of this.'
Thanks to our splendid Bible societies and to other effective agencies for the dissemination of the Word, there are today many millions of people who hold `right opinions,' probably more than ever before in the history of the Church.Yet I wonder if there was ever a time when true spiritual worship was ever a time when true spiritual worship was at a lower ebb. To great sections of the Church the art of worship has been lost entirely, and in its place has come that strange and foreign thing called the `program.' This word has been borrowed from the stage and applied with sad wisdom to the type of public service which now passes for worship among us.
Sound Bible exposition is an imperative must in the Church of the living God. Without it no church can be a New Testament church in any strict meaning of that term. But exposition may be carried on in such way as to leave the hearers devoid of any true spiritual nourishment whatever. For it is not mere words that nourish the soul, but God Himself, and unless and until the hearers find God in personal experience, they are not the better for having heard the truth. The Bible is not an end in itself, but a means to bring men to an intimate and satisfying knowledge of God, that they may enter into Him, that they may delight in His Presence, may taste and know the inner sweetness of the very God Himself in the core and center of their hearts."
-A. W. Tozer Chicago, Ill. June 16, 1948.
(From the Preface of The Pursuit of God)
| 2007/7/24 23:46||Profile|
I am not an "arminian."
I am not a "calvinist."
I just love the Lord.
When I "met" the Lord as a young teen at summer camp, I told Him that I would give everything I am -- and everything that I would ever be -- if I could just know Him and be His friend. It was a few months before I noticed the squabble between the "once saved/always saved" crowd and those who don't believe in that concept. I've often wondered why individuals so viciously try to align themselves with one of two opposing sides. Why can't an individual just be himself/herself in the Lord?
In times of such ridiculous and petty doctrinal disputes, I am always reminded about the position of the angel of the Lord when he was asked by Joshua, "[i]Art thou for us, or for our adversaries[/i]?" What was the answer? "[i]And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come[/i]" (Joshua 3:13-14).
God help us to align ourselves with the independent attitude of the Lord's camp!
| 2007/7/25 0:03||Profile|
I can understand the intensity of those on each side, who fear the pitfalls associated with either opposing view.
The urgent Calvinist fears that his poor Arminian brothers are days from Socinianism, or may even be false converts yet trusting in the weak arm of the flesh. He wonders, how can they not know how helpless they were to come? He is concerned that their evangelism sends men away self-confident and not altogether stripped of hope in their own abilities.
Meanwhile, the Arminians are repulsed at the seemingly narrow view of God's plan of salvation held by their Calvinist brothers. Can one be truly a Christian and not perceive the all encompassing, unlimited atonement of Christ? They fear that their brothers may become fatalistic or cold to evangelism.
It is a real issue, one that cannot be tucked so easily away. Yet we must have it in love.
I recommend all to read the introduction to J.I.Packer's "Evangelism and the Sovereignty of God", in which he uses a none-too-similar illustration of prayer as evidence of universal Christian belief in
-unconditional election - that is, God's mercy apart from merit
- extensive unwillingness - that is, no one is willing or able to come to God apart from divine movement upon them
- and irresistible grace - that is, we pray for God to move on them whether or not they are seeking it.
Packer states it more cogently than I have done.
Anyways, let's make this thread a little more brotherly (and sisterly ;-) )
So much thankfulness for you who have taught me,
| 2007/7/25 2:58||Profile|
Santa Cruz California
It is a funny thing that if this were one of those very long free will, or moral governmenat posts, most would be saying Amen, but whne a differeing view is presented, and a very good example is pointed out, men recoil and say, "how dare you."
Here's a quote from Spurgeon for you all to thnk over as I have-
[i]"I have heard it asserted most positively, that those high doctrines which we love and which we find in the Scriptures, are licentious ones. I do not know who has the hardihood to make that assertion, when they consider that the holiest of men have been believers in them. I ask the man who dares to say that Calvinism is a licentious religion, what he thinks of the character of Augustine, or Calvin, or Whitfield, who in successive ages were the great exponents of the system of grace; or what will he say of those Puritans, whose works are full of them? Had a man been an Arminian in those days, he would have been accounted the vilest heretic breathing; but now we are looked upon as the heretics, and they the orthodox."[/i]
| 2007/7/25 3:02||Profile|
Spurgeon also said
Again let me remind you that the Scriptures plainly teach us that the atonement of
our Lord Jesus Christ has a universal bearing; and it seems to me that those who
limit the value of the atonement do most seriously err from the faith. I believe the
sacrifice of Jesus Christ was so infinite that, if there had been ten thousand worlds
full of sinners to have been redeemed, it was amply sufficient to have redeemed them
but i also wonder how do you as a person that belive in this doctrine, how do you pray? do you ever pray for a lost person? even when you know(if you belive so) that your prayer will never do anything except God choose that person you happend to pray fore? if not are your prayers just wasted? I really wonder how you view that issue?
What worries me about this doctrine is if could be possible for all those who are saved to never pray one single prayer, never witness one single time to anybody and still God would save all who he has chosen. I know what many are going to answer and to think such thoughts i consider "carnal".
But in the end when i view and think about this Calvanistic Doctrine this is what i come to. because it leaves all responsibility to God.
Edit: this sermon is not about Calvanism vs arminianism. But its about sound doctrine, and it is a Good sermon to listen to no matter what "doctrine" one has. [url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=2546]Sound doctrine in life A.W Tozer (Titus series)[/url]
| 2007/7/25 3:46||Profile|
If the doctrine of limited atonement is true, then how can this scripture be true?
"And the angel said unto them...behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to ALL PEOPLE. For unto you is born this day in the city od David a Savior" Luke 2:10-11
The gospel of limited atonement is far from being good tidings of great joy to all people.
We need to tell everyone person we meet that Christ died for them. What are we to tell sinners to believe in order to be saved? They need to believe that Christ died for them. Sinners must believe in order to be saved, and they must believe that Christ died for them, and so we must tell sinners Christ died for them.
How can we expect sinners to fall in love with God if we do not tell them that God so loved them first, by giving His Son? We are to love Him because He first loved us. And how did He love us, He so loved the world that He gave His Son.
If they are to believe, they must be told Jesus died for them.
If they are to repent, they must be told that God so loved them.
When we preach and evangelize, we are to tell sinners to repent and believe. But repent why? Because God so loved them. And believe what? That Christ died for them.
Mr 16:15 says we are to preach the gospel to everybody. And what are we to tell everybody? 1Corinthians 15:1-4 says Paul preached to sinners that Jesus died for our sins, was buried, and rose again.
We have a gospel to preach to all people, that Jesus died for them, and if they repent and believe they can have the grace made possible through the cross.
| 2007/7/25 4:09|