| Poster | Thread | roaringlamb
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California
| | Re: | | Quote:
Furthermore, to imply that non-Calvinists believe that Christs atonement only purchases the potential of salvation for sinners is very misleading. Christs atonement does much more than that. It purchases for everyone what is necessary for their salvationforgiveness, regeneration, eternity in heaven, and so on.
If indeed the Cross purchased "salvationforgiveness, regeneration, eternity in heaven" for all, then Christ is mistaken here-
Mat 26:28 For this is [b]my blood[/b] of the new testament, which is [b]shed for many for the remission of sins.[/b]
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It does not, however, purchase the forcing of people against their wills to believe in Christ, as that is not Gods desire or His plan.
Nor do Calvinists teach this. We believe that God by His Spirit changes the will of the heart so that what was once despised now is wondrous, what once seemed the utmost foolishness now is what we believe, this is regeneration or the new birth. God never does any damage to the will of man, but that will is not free as it is bound to sin as its master. The man who wills to sin, will sin on into eternity, unless God intervenes and changes his heart.
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God has given every person a free will because it is His will that each individual exercise the right to believe in Christ or reject Christ. If God wanted robots, He would have created robots. But He didnt want robots. He wants a family that loves Him. Apart from freedom of the will, love is impossible.
This is assuming that man can naturally love God, and that man has a "free will" which is unscathed by sin. Men are not robots, men are dead and in need of resurrection. The point is that unless God chages the heart, no man would love God, as man's heart is enslaved to his desires which in the natural man are all for sin, and not for God.
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Jesus died for every persons sins, but that doesnt automatically mean that everyone will be saved (as Piper erroneously argues would be true if Jesus atoned for everyones sins). Every individual must receive salvation by believing in the Lord Jesus. When people believe, then what Christ accomplished for them becomes effectual in their lives.
If Chirst has died for all sins, then why must a man believe in order to take hold of salvation, as unbeleif is a sin, and if all sin has been paid for, then it must of necessity mean that unbelief is within that payment.
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This is the only conclusion we can rightfully draw from Scripture that tells us that Jesus died for everyones sins and yet also tells that not everyone will be saved.
No, because Scripture tells us very clearly,
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
And we must understand, that foreknow means to know intimately beforehand, not foresee. Consider this passage-
1Pe 1:20 Who verily was [b]foreordained[/b] before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
Now the word translated "foreordained" here is the same word for "foreknow" which is proginosko. This passage is speaking of Christ. So was Christ only foreseen by the Father, or did God know Christ.
Of course where the word "forseeing" is used, it is a different word altogether, this word is proeidō, and it is used in Acts 2:31, and Galatians 3:8.
It's always good to see how words are used before we jump to conclusions about what the writer is or is not saying. That is why we are commanded to rightly divide the word of truth.
_________________
patrick heaviside
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|  2007/7/26 14:19 | Profile |
| | Re: | | Quote:
Nor do Calvinists teach this. We believe that God by His Spirit changes the will of the heart so that what was once despised now is wondrous, what once seemed the utmost foolishness now is what we believe, this is regeneration or the new birth. God never does any damage to the will of man, but that will is not free as it is bound to sin as its master. The man who wills to sin, will sin on into eternity, unless God intervenes and changes his heart.
Much of the confusion with Calvinism is they confuse Sanctification with Justification. Sanctification/ or the realities of that work come to those who are first justified by His blood. We are not *justified* by His Spirit. The *SURETY* of the Covenant you find in Hebrews is not the promise of initial *salvation*, but the *Keeping power and promises* to those who are saved.
The Holy Spirit is received and given to those who have FIRST repented. If Calvinists have it their way..there would be no need to repent, because you have all ready received the Holy Spirit to believe. This is NOT what the Bible teaches.
Love in Christ
Katy-did
Added/for content
Luke 24:47
And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 3:19
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.
Acts 5:31
Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
Acts 8:22
Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
Acts 11:18
When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
Acts 13:24
When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.
Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Acts 19:4
Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Acts 20:21
Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.
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| | 2007/7/27 14:30 | | roaringlamb
Member
Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California
| | Re: | | Quote:
The Holy Spirit is received and given to those who have FIRST repented. If Calvinists have it their way..there would be no need to repent, because you have all ready received the Holy Spirit to believe. This is NOT what the Bible teaches.
Sister by saying this, you are saying that a natural man can understand spiritual things, but Scripture says this-
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Also, the emphasis of Jesus words to Nicodemas John 3 show that a man must be born from above before he can understand the Kingdom of Heaven.
How can a man repent without the Spirit working first? When conviction of sin is one of the works of the Spirit?
John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
John 16:8 And [b]when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:[/b]
Men are dead in sin, and children of wrath, thus they need life and new birth. These cannot be produced by the flesh no matter how hard it tries.
_________________
patrick heaviside
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| | 2007/7/27 14:43 | Profile | LoveHim
Member
Joined: 2007/6/14
Posts: 562
Indiana, US
| | Re: | | Quote:
How can a man repent without the Spirit working first? When conviction of sin is one of the works of the Spirit?
he cannot in and of himself. but when the Holy Spirit enlightens him and convicts him, he can and does repent.Quote:
John 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
he will reprove the world (not just elect or some of all kinds, but the world) of sin, righteousness and judgement.Quote:
Men are dead in sin, and children of wrath, thus they need life and new birth. These cannot be produced by the flesh no matter how hard it tries.
how did the isrealites and people of the OT repent when they weren't indwelt by the Holy Spirit?? have you ever stopped and wondered that?? just some thoughts.
thank you brother for being so kind and great to talk to on this thread.. i look forward to your response.
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| | 2007/7/27 15:21 | Profile |
| | Re: | | RoaringLamb,
I am saying after Adam and Eve sinned, all mankind died. Yet Abel was justified before God, because Abel acknowledged himself a SINNER who could not save himself, and therefor put his faith in the PROMISE of Genesis 3:15 that a redeemer was promised to come. HE KNEW as an unregenerate man the spiritual meaning of offering a blood sacrifice acknowledging himself a SINNER. That doesn't take a rocket scientist or a saved person only to do, as Cain refused, even though God gave him a second chance. Are you stating Adam & Eve took Abel aside and told him the ways of God, and left Cain out in the dark? Absolutely not. How many in the OT without being regenerated first REPENTED...David for one.
What about those in the OT with Moses, the sacrifice of bulls and goats. reminding them of their sin Hebrews 10. Man knows he is a sinner!
Romans 5:18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon ****all men unto justification of life.
The Gift came for ALL men, but not all men will accept that free Gift.
1 Corinthians 15:3
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
2 Corinthians 5:14
For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
John 3:14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
*******Does anyone know or remember the Story in the OT about lifting up the serpent in the wilderness? Do you know and understand the meaning of this? If you dont you will never understand ****free will**** Free Choice****.
15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
No where in the Bible does it say, For God so loved the ELECT only, that He limited his atonement for them only.
Love in Christ
Katy-did
PS: Ask the Lord to show you what John 3:14 means!!!
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| | 2007/7/27 15:25 | | JaySaved
Member
Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1132
Missouri
| | Re: | | Quote:
Romans 5:18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon ****all men unto justification of life.
(emphasis mine)
The phrase 'came upon' is used twice in this verse.
First, it is used to show that through Adam's sin, judgment came upon every single person who is of Adam
Second, it is used to show that through Jesus' righteousness, salvation came upon every single person who is of Jesus.
That is what this verses tells us, because 'came upon' is different than 'for'. The free gift did not just come for with the possibility of being reject, no this verse says that the free gift 'came upon'.
Just as it is wrong to say that through Adam's sin, judgment came for all men (as if they must accept it first) you cannot say from this verse that the free gift just came for every single person. No, the free gift 'came upon' them. |
| | 2007/7/28 8:49 | Profile | LoveHim
Member
Joined: 2007/6/14
Posts: 562
Indiana, US
| | Re: | | hello brother jay, how are you doing? i was gonna ask what part of kentucky are you from?? did you see the scores from the indiana-kentucky basketball all-star games?? ok, back to the post. :-)
romans 5:17 "for if by one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who RECEIVE ADUNDANCE AND GRACE and of the GIFT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ".
romans 5:18 "therefore, as through one man's offense, judgement came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life".
that phrase came upon in the literal translation of the greek-english interlinear bible shows that 'came upon' was like 'came toward' or 'was toward'. pretty much like the NKJV says 'came to'. so through adam's sin, death came to all men. how does man get this death of adam?? by their first birth. likewise through Jesus's righteous act, justification of life came to all men. how does man receive this justification?? by their second birth. i believe that this passage fits in squarely with the rest of scripture that shows that Jesus came and died for the world, but his death is only effective in the lives of those who receive Him. please look at verse 17. who are the one's who will reign in life through Jesus?? the ones who receive His grace and His righteousness.
brother jay, thank you for your willingness to talk about this and the kindness you show in doing so. love you man. |
| | 2007/7/28 10:02 | Profile | roaringlamb
Member
Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California
| | Re: | | Quote:
he will reprove the world (not just elect or some of all kinds, but the world) of sin, righteousness and judgment.
What I was getting at is that only those who are given faith to see that Christ is the Saviour will be forgiven of their sin. There are many miserable people in this world who will try and try to gain some sort of peace through acts such as going to church, chanting, praying(to false deities) etc. The misery comes because they know that no matter what they do, they cannot achieve a righteousness that eases their conscience, but the will is so enslaved to sin, they will not come, they will continue on in their works to try to scale up to Heaven.
This is why what we have, the Gospel is good news to the one who admits his sin. For we have the only truth that sets a man's conscience free to serve the Living God. I think these two verse show what I am trying to say-
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but [b]he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.[/b]
But it is because men are blind, crippled, dead in sin, that they will not come. Rather they will rail against God and His Christ, and look for a million other way to be justified by God.
It is until the scales are removed from the eyes, and the breath of life comes upon the bones of our soul, that we remain unable to come, and unable to do anything good as God counts good.
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how did the Israelites and people of the OT repent when they weren't indwelt by the Holy Spirit?? have you ever stopped and wondered that?? just some thoughts.
What is interesting about this, is that God spoke openly to them, or to prophets to deliver His words to them. There would always be some form of revelation to them.
Also not Israel repented, as we know some perished in the wilderness, some were bitten by the fiery serpents. But there was always revelation that they were to respond to.
They also had the presence of God with them in the Tabernacle, and later in the Temple.
Anyone who was justified then though still had faith in the One to come, or the seed of Genesis 3:15.
Even in speaking about Israel, and their privileges, it is important to note that Paul points out, "they are not all of Israel who are descendants of Israel"(Rom 9:6). We must also look at the fact that the nations surrounding Israel had no entrance into the promises of Israel(unless of course they left their land, and people), thus the way of peace between God and man was made known to the Israelites only. Notice though what God tells them-
Deu 7:6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: [b]the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.[/b]
Deu 7:7 [b]The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:[/b]
Deu 7:8 [b]But because the LORD loved you,[/b] and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
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thank you brother for being so kind and great to talk to on this thread.. i look forward to your response.
Likewise :-D
_________________
patrick heaviside
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| | 2007/7/28 12:34 | Profile | LoveHim
Member
Joined: 2007/6/14
Posts: 562
Indiana, US
| | Re: | | Quote:
What I was getting at is that only those who are given faith to see that Christ is the Saviour will be forgiven of their sin.
i guess the way i see it is that the Holy Spirit convicts the world of their sin. many wil have a revelation of God and still love their sin and chose to walk in it, but some after having the revelation will humble themselves and accept Christ. Christ will then impart Himself in them and give them new life "he who has the Son has life".
now about the OT saints. you said that they still had revelation and the prophets. in the same way, we have the word and the revelation of Jesus Christ. some when seeing Christ for who He is will repent of their sins and come to Him that they might be saved, while others will see Christ and spit on Him. both in the NT and OT, the believers of God heard Him and believed on Him. "abram believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness".Quote:
Anyone who was justified then though still had faith in the One to come, or the seed of Genesis 3:15
do you see how they still by an act of the will had to place their faith in Him (the Seed)??
love you brother.. |
| | 2007/7/28 13:10 | Profile | roaringlamb
Member
Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California
| | Re: | | Quote:
now about the OT saints. you said that they still had revelation and the prophets. in the same way, we have the word and the revelation of Jesus Christ. some when seeing Christ for who He is will repent of their sins and come to Him that they might be saved, while others will see Christ and spit on Him. both in the NT and OT, the believers of God heard Him and believed on Him. "abram believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness".
The tricky question is, who made the difference? If all are enslaved to sin, and would rather sew fig leaves together to make a righteousness of their own work, than to submit to God's righteousness, where does the difference come from?
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do you see how they still by an act of the will had to place their faith in Him (the Seed)??
Yes, and again we have to come back to the question, who or what or from where did the difference come between those that believed, and those that did not?
To me, it seems that man in his natural state wants to do what Adam did, and hide in fig leaves.
But we know that the NT expounds upon the state of man much more than the OT, and so we understand that all men died in Adam, that men are dead in sin, and children of wrath. So in having that knowledge, we can say that God alone made the difference.
This is fun, as it is causing me see things that I may not have thought of before, thanks.
_________________
patrick heaviside
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| | 2007/7/28 13:22 | Profile |
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