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LoveHim
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Joined: 2007/6/14
Posts: 562
Indiana, US

 Re:

Quote:
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.


john 12:32
"and I, if I be lifted up from the earth, WILL DRAW ALL MEN UNTO ME"

a little background on john 6. who was Jesus talking to?? unbelieving jews right. "but I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe" (v36) have you ever noticed what Jesus said unto them in verse 29? when asked how they may do the works of God, what did Jesus say??

"Jesus answered and said to them (unbelieving jews) This is the work of God, that YOU BELIEVE in Him whom He sent"

isn't it contradictory to you for Jesus to tell unbelievers that they need to place their faith and trust in Him?? why would Jesus tell them to do something that they can't??

because Jesus knew that man does have a choice. they were choosing that day and they are choosing today, whom will they place their faith in, God or satan..
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Joh 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day


keep going. (john 6:40)" and this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and BELIEVES in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise Him up at the last day".

this is totally in harmony with the rest of the scriptures. that all who place their faith in Christ and believes on Him will be born again and made children of God. The Father gives them (the children of God) to Christ to be kept until the last day. where is the contradiction?? brother, please read chapter 6 with the book of John and the book of John with the whole Bible. (i hope that didn't sound mean, sorry if it does). 1 passage of a couple verses will not contradict hundreds of clear verses that God desires all men to be saved and that He has opened a way for men to repent of their sin and turn to Him.
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Now the passage in Romans says that God "foreknew" those who He "predestined". In light of this what does "foreknow" mean? Does it mean simply "to foresee" as in God foreseeing faith and electing on the basis of that?


foreknew means to foresee (strong's). to know before. foreknowledge is an atribute of God. He has always known all things and will always know all things. that foreknowledge.

predestination is another thing all together. it does not mean elect, it means predestined. what has God predestined? that all who come to Him will be (1) conformed to the image of His Son (rom 8:29) and (2) that we who are IN HIM will be adopted as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself (eph 1:5). so that is predestination, that God has decided before hand that all who come to believe IN HIM will be conformed in the image of His Son and adopted when we receive the redemption of our body (rom 8:23). let us not try to add to predestination when the word does not do that.
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Now many have rightly said, "God is no respector of persons.


brother don't you see that you cannot say that and mean it. your whole theology is built upon God electing (selecting) some and rejecting all others because He just wanted to.
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So now if God elects on the basis of foreseen faith, is He not favouring one over another?


no, not even close. He has said "whosoever will" and "all who". there is no favoring there.
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We know that there is nothing in one man that is different than another until the new birth


exactly, some choose to accept and some choose to reject, it's that simple.
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The Arminian says free will, while the Calvinist says God.


brother, i am not arminian, i am not a calvanist, i am simply a christian and i refuse to be one or the other. brother, please let the whole word give you your theology, not a couple passages or a man-made doctrine.
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Now which view do the Scripture add up with?


i believe scripture is very clear from beginning to end. "for God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that WHOSOEVER BELIEVIETH IN HIM shall not perish, but have everlasting life"

 2007/7/24 23:08Profile









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foreknew means to foresee (strong's). to know before. foreknowledge is an atribute of God. He has always known all things and will always know all things. that foreknowledge.




""But," say others, "God elected them on the foresight of their faith." Now, God gives faith, therefore he could not have elected them on account of faith, which he foresaw. There shall be twenty beggars in the street, and I determine to give one of them a shilling; but will any one say that I determined to give that one a shilling, that I elected him to have the shilling, because I foresaw that he would have it? That would be talking nonsense. In like manner to say that God elected men because he foresaw they would have faith, which is salvation in the germ, would be too absurd for us to listen to for a moment. Faith is the gift of God. Every virtue comes from him. Therefore it cannot have caused him to elect men, because it is his gift." C. Spurgeon

 2007/7/24 23:28
LoveHim
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Joined: 2007/6/14
Posts: 562
Indiana, US

 Re:

Quote:
Faith is the gift of God. Every virtue comes from him. Therefore it cannot have caused him to elect men, because it is his gift." C. Spurgeon


brother sscott,
let me say from the start i love reading from spurgeon. i get so much out of a man used greatly by God. that being said, i have a question for you..

does not every man have a measure of faith?? unbelievers and believers alike all have a measure of faith. unbelievers place their faith in their works, their false idea of being "good enough". and believers have placed their faith in Christ.

we are saved by grace through??? faith. we have God-given faith before we are saved by His grace. let us not reverse the order, for God has shown that all men can by the Spirit's leading, receive Him and place their faith in Him. then grace is bestowed upon them and they are born again from on high. there always has and there always will be one condition for salvation and that is faith in Christ. period.

 2007/7/24 23:42Profile









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does not every man have a measure of faith?? unbelievers and believers alike all have a measure of faith.



I cannot find scripture that says everyone has faith.

The passage in Romans 12 is written to believers...speaking to believers.

1I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

2And be not conformed to this world: but [b]be ye[/b] transformed by the renewing of your mind, that [b]ye[/b] may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

3For I say, through the grace given unto me, [b]to every man that is among you,[/b] not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
4For [b]as we[/b] have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:

(some of the other version are more clear than the KJV)

We are to think soberly because God has given us a measure of faith.


 2007/7/25 1:13
LoveHim
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Joined: 2007/6/14
Posts: 562
Indiana, US

 Re:

a couple thoughts brother...

*what about the roman centurion, how did he have faith??? the syrophinician woman??? these weren't believing jews, but they trusted Jesus and displayed great faith.

*if man does not have faith, then man cannot be saved. we repent of our sin (by the Spirit's leading and convicting power), and place our faith in Christ and believe and then He saves us by bestowing His saving grace upon the humble, broken vessel who is yielding his will to Him.
look at this verse and the order that paul shows us.

"for by grace you have been saved THROUGH FAITH, and that is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. not of works, lest anyone should boast".

first we place our faith in Him, then He saves us. that is the divine order.

hundreds of clear verses show that God expects and commands that man repent and believe on Him. my question is why would God command something He did not give us the capacity to do?? why command us to place our faith in Him if He does not give us faith to place???

to use this kind of logic anywhere else would be cruel and deceitful, but with God it seems as if you're saying that it's ok..

"if you being evil know how to give good gifts, how much more will the Father in heaven give us the Holy Spirit". (sorry quick paraphrase)

"will not the judge of the earth do right"??

if us in our limited understanding understand that this would be wrong, how much more will JUSTICE and TRUTH Himself do what's right??

 2007/7/25 8:32Profile









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my question is why would God command something He did not give us the capacity to do??



Did God command perfect obediance to his law in the old testament?

 2007/7/25 10:32
JaySaved
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Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

David Servant did not write this article. David Kirkwood wrote this article.

 2007/7/25 12:11Profile
JaySaved
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Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
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 Re:

Quote:
Calvinistic Converts
I can’t help but wonder how God takes pleasure in people who are, against their wills, supposedly regenerated by God’s irresistible grace. They are really nothing more than robots. If they love Him, it is only because they had no choice but to love Him, because they would have preferred to continue hating Him. This means, of course, that they really don’t love Him, because love is predicated upon choice. Their warm feelings toward Him are pre-programmed; thus true love is impossible. I encourage the reader to take a puppet made from a sock, put it on his hand, have it turn and look at him, and then have it say, “I love you!” Does that give the reader the same feeling as when his spouse or child says those words? And why not? Because free will has been eliminated. The puppet is only saying what you are making him say.


David does not understand the relationship between the Will of man and God’s Irresistible Grace. Man’s Will is “that by which man actively chooses.” It is the innate ability through which, if unhindered, allows man to choose the most desirous option at any given moment. It is my desire to prove that man will never choose anything against his Will and that God chooses men to salvation in accord with man’s Will, not in violation of man’s Will.
What do I mean by that definition of Will? Here are some practical examples:
Example 1:
Johnny is walking down the street when another man points a gun at him. The robber makes the following statement: “Give me your wallet or I will kill you.” Johnny gives the wallet to the robber who runs away.
One might say, “The robber took the wallet against Johnny’s Will because Johnny did not want to lose his wallet.” It is true that Johnny does not desire to lose his wallet at anytime, however when the robber pointed the gun at Johnny, Johnny was presented two options: 1) Give the wallet and live and 2) Keep the wallet and die. Johnny responded according to his Will and chose the most desirous option (Give the wallet and live). Johnny’s Will was never violated because Johnny freely chose the most desirous option.
Example 2:
Johnny is walking down the street when a net is lowered on him and he cannot move or escape. (I know…poor Johnny) A robber comes out of the shadows, takes Johnny’s wallet and runs away.
One might say, “The robber took the wallet against Johnny’s Will because Johnny never had a chance to decide therefore Johnny’s Will was violated.” It is true that Johnny never had a chance to make a choice and it is for that very reason that Johnny’s Will was not violated. The Will was never brought into the event. Johnny never had an option to choose so therefore he never had his Will violated. The Will manifests itself in the action of choosing, where there is choice there is no action. A sad event occurred in Johnny’s life, but his wallet was not taken against his Will.
I hope that I have shown that a man’s Will is never violated in the course of human events. He is always free to choose what he most desires—as long as the ability to choose is present. With regard to man’s Will, man has the freedom to choose, but is always in bondage to his desires. Thus man’s Will is free, yet bound.
I now desire to prove that God does not violate man’s Will when He sovereignty chooses men to become Christians—for this is a common objection to Reformed Theology in that many say it makes men to be nothing more than robots. When God calls a sinner to repentance, He does not violate that sinner’s Will. What God does is that He reveals truth to the sinner. It can be said that God “removes the spiritual blinders from the sinner’s eyes.” By God revealing himself to the sinner, the sinner sees God for who He truly is—Holy, sees himself who he truly is—sinful, and sees his sinfulness for what it truly is—deserving of punishment. It is at this moment that the sinner responds to the calling of God because the sinner sees the truth. It is for this reason that the saving Grace extended by God is Irresistible. The sinner’s response is done according to his Will and not is violation of his Will. Even though the sinner is choosing something that he would not have before, the Will is not violated because the man’s desires have changed—desires being that which the Will is bound. Prior to God’s revelation of Himself, the Will always chose according to desire, after God’s revelation of Himself, the Will still chooses that which is most desirous, in this case it is the most desirous option to respond to God’s Call. Ephesians 2:1 says, “And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;”
David’s example of a sock puppet is inaccurate when describing God’s saving grace because God does force anyone to act against their Will. God works in harmony with man’s Will. It is for this reason that the ‘robot’ argument fails.

 2007/7/25 12:12Profile
LoveHim
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Joined: 2007/6/14
Posts: 562
Indiana, US

 Re:

Quote:
Did God command perfect obediance to his law in the old testament?


brother you are trying to tie in 2 different circumstances. the purpose of the law was to show mankind that they were sinners and that they could not keep God's law perfectly, thus they had to rely upon their faith in God that He would passover their sin because of His promise to do so with the sacrifices (rom 3:25).

the point of the law is to bring us to Christ. Christ is the "end of the law". God spent so much time with all the types and symbols and shadows of the OT, that man might receive Christ when He came manifest to earth.

to say that this is the same as God calling men to repentance and commanding them to believe in Him to have eternal life is very far-fetched. they are totally different situations.

ps. there are still tons of scripture that clearly shows God's desire for the world to be saved and man's responsibility to repent and place his faith in Christ.

 2007/7/25 12:18Profile
JaySaved
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Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
In summary, the Calvinist makes God a lying, deceiving, bigoted, malicious, unjust, confused hypocrite who is responsible for the world’s evil and who creates people for the expressed purpose of torturing them forever. If any man did the things Calvinists say God does, every person on the earth would rightly consider that man worthy of immediate execution, and certainly not worthy to be worshiped. Who is really robbing God of glory? Is it the non-Calvinist who says that man must yield to God’s Spirit using his God-given free will in order to be saved, or is it the Calvinist, who turns God into a monster?


Wow. David has an amazing confused view of Calvinism! He says that Calvinism makes God
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“even more ‘totally depraved’ than we are!”, makes God the author of sin, makes God a hypocrite, makes God a “lying, deceiving, bigoted, malicious, unjust, confused hypocrite who is responsible for the world’s evil and who creates people for the expressed purpose of torturing them forever.”, “makes God ultimately responsible for all the evil in the world.”, “God is thus somewhat equivalent to the parent who spanks his baby for not walking, but He is a million times worse. Why? Because to the Calvinist, God tortures people eternally in hell for not doing what they were absolutely incapable of doing.”

Does he truly believe that this is what Calvinism teaches? He says earlier
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“I often serve in ministry along side of Calvinistic Christians who are devoted servants of Christ.”

So what is the truth? Does Calvinism believe that God is all the things David says?
To use the words of the apostle Paul…“God forbid!”
So what of David’s Claims? Let’s look at a few:
1.
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“Imagine a man who is an adulterer. His God-given conscience condemns him continually (see Rom. 2:15), but he continues in his adulterous relationship. Thus he is using his freedom to resist God, which Piper says is all he can or will ever do since he is totally depraved. But imagine that he finally breaks off his adulterous relationship due to guilt. Now can it still be said that he has only used his freedom to resist God? No, it cannot. He used his freedom to repent of adultery, and yielded to his God-given conscience. If he can use his freedom to do that, why can’t he, with the help of the Holy Spirit, repent of a lifestyle of rebellion and humble himself before God?”


This man is in an adulterous relationship and he knows it is wrong. He finally breaks off the relationship and repented. Repented? This man understood that his sin was a offense to God and turned to God asking for forgiveness? Is this what David is saying? How can a man who does not know God or love God turn to God in repentance without coming to Him for salvation? This man comes to God to receive forgiveness of sin, has turned his back on that sin, seen its sinfulness and we are expected to believe that this man does not come to God in faith? Are unregenerate people in the habit of repenting but not believing? Of course not! But David wants us to believe that there are many unregenerate people who do not desire God, who do not come to Him for salvation, but repent daily. The truth is, unless this man comes to God for forgiveness, his ‘repentance’ is worthless. He may break off the relationship with the women, but he is not doing so out of love for Christ.
2.
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“How could someone who has the free choice to remain unrepentant possibly not have the freedom to choose to repent? How could a person have the capacity to choose to become more evil but not have the capacity to choose to become less evil? Merely by choosing to not become more evil is by default, a choice for good. If we can use our freedom to resist God but can’t use it to yield to God, we really have no freedom at all. We’re robots, programmed to do evil, having no freedom. It is utterly impossible to have freedom to resist God if one doesn’t have freedom to yield to God.”


The first sentence is like asking, ‘How can an unregenerate person have the desire to enjoy sin, but not have the power to hate sin? It is an absurd question. The unregenerate person does not know God and does not love God. They choose to remain unrepentant because they see not desire to repent. They are an enemy of God. The do not desire to repent because they see no reason to repent! Yes, they may make choices that are not as evil as could be, but they are not doing so to Honor and love God. Man is totally depraved because he cannot, does not, and desires not to obey God.
David makes a very interesting statement:
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“God’s drawing, however, never forces anyone to repent, nor does it change anyone’s will apart from the consent of his heart.”

I agree that God does not force anyone to repent. I assume he is referring to John 6:44, “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.” But what happens to the “him” that was drawn in this verse? Jesus says that He will raise him. According to John 6:44, the “him” that was drawn is the same “him” that is raised. So John 6:44 says that all who are drawn are raised. David however says that not all who are drawn are raised (repent). Who are you to believe—David or Scripture?
David says,
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“The Calvinist also makes God ultimately responsible for all the evil in the world. Why? Because God could put an end to all evil by influencing everyone with His irresistible grace, but He sovereignly chooses not to, thus evil remains only because of God’s sovereign choice. Depraved man can supposedly do nothing but sin unless God keeps him from it by choosing to show him His irresistible grace, so the ultimate reason for evil is because God doesn’t keep evil people from sinning.”


Does David believe that God could put an end to all sin at any moment if He chooses to? I am sure that all Arminians believe in the second coming of Jesus Christ. What happens at that moment? Jesus comes down and puts away sin forever. According to David’s logic, if God can stop sin but doesn’t then He must be responsible for it. This is faulty logic at its core.
David says,
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“Calvinists often decry the position of non-Calvinists, accusing them of making man responsible for his own salvation (which is a false accusation). Yet Calvinists make God responsible for the damnation of billions! Clearly, the God of Calvinism hates people even before they are born, when He determines that their eternal fate will be incarceration and agony in hell. If God is solely responsible for the salvation of certain people, He is also solely responsible for the damnation of everyone else, because only He could have rescued them from their fate, but He decided not to do so. And that decision was not predicated on God’s inability to stop sin, but His unwillingness to stop it. Thus God wills sin in select people’s lives. To the Calvinist, man doesn’t stop sinning because he has no choice, but because God, who can stop sin, chooses not to! God is thus even more “totally depraved” than we are!”


David’s position is that since God can save all men but doesn’t then God is unjust and is personally sending people to hell. But doesn’t David believe that God has chosen to limit His sovereignty and abide by man’s Free Will? If God has chosen to limit His sovereignty then it must mean that God had the ability to save all men but chose not to save all men. Would this not mean that God is unjust? Are we saying that God can command the rivers, oceans, sun, moon and stars but does not have any power of bring man to salvation apart from the consent of man. Does this not mean that God has chosen to limit His power? David refuses to believe that his own position is unjust according to his own logic. The truth of Calvinism and scripture is that God chosen to same some and leave others in their sin. This was God’s intent and God accomplished what He willed. Is this unjust? Take it up with Paul in Romans 9:14-24, “What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?”

 2007/7/25 12:20Profile





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