| Poster | Thread | roaringlamb
Member
Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California
| | Re: | | Quote:
Many scripture say, Satan has blinded their eyes...not God.
Here Jesus seems to be saying contrary to what you are saying-
Mat 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, [b]I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent,[/b] and hast revealed them unto babes.
And what of this-
Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Mat 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Of course these people saw Jesus physically, and heard Him, so this must be speaking of a spiritual hearing and seeing.
Here is a parallel passage from John-
John 12:37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
John 12:38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
John 12:39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
John 12:40 [b]He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.[/b]
John 12:41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.
Does not "he" refer to God?
Also, what of the disciples on the road to Emmaus-
Luke 24:15 And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them.
Luke 24:16 But their eyes were holden that they should not know him.
This could go either way, but I believe that God was holding their eyes shut, and not satan.
You forgot this verse among the verses that mention satan blinding or enslaving people-
2Ti 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; [b]if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;[/b]
2Ti 2:26 And [b]that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.[/b]
Quote:
So please read ALL scripture and not just the verses that support a very weak and cruel theology.
I do not see how you can make this claim. Scripture affirms God's sovereignty over and over again. He is the Potter, we are the clay. He the Creator, we the creature.
I suppose it is cruel and weak if you come to it looking at man as being good, or born neutral towards God. But this is not the case at all. Men do not desire to be saved, men desire sin, therefore if God was to give what is fair, none would be saved.
Allow me to ask you, if I was to say that men go to hell, because they choose to go there by rejecting God's offer of salvation, would you agree? If so, why is this easy to receive, yet when we say that God and God alone either gives grace for conversion, or passes by others leaving them in their sinful state, we are are cruel, and weak?
If God cannot intervene upon man's heart, then prophecy would be in jeopardy, as a man could ultimately refuse to do what God wanted him to. Consider how God named Cyrus long before he was born. How did He get his parents to name him, and how could God get him to do exactly as He prophesied years before his birth.
Even the birth of our Lord could not have happened according to Prophecy if man can refuse. Consider if Mary decided not to name Him Jesus, thus breaking what the angel predicted, or what if Joseph stayed where they were. Then the prophecy, "out of Egypt have I called my Son" would be negated.
Eventually, if you follow out what is know as Arminianism, or Pelagianism you must admit to open theism which says that God's decrees are based upon mans' decisions, thus God cannot know the future, and He must at all times stay one step ahead of His creation, or all will be ruined. This is not found anywhere in the Scriptures, and is bordering blasphemy.
_________________
patrick heaviside
|
|  2007/8/7 22:54 | Profile |
| | Re: | | Quote:
I was simply stating that in John 3, the "whosoever" must do something in order to have everlasting life. Namely they must believe, and no man can do this on their own, as the natural man cannot receive th things of the Spirit. Consider also Jesus' words in John 8-
Roaringlamb, I'm confused here, especially about your comment on Rev 3...stating those who God says have NO ears to hear or Eyes to see you are calling Christians?????? You are confused. If they are lax Christians then why do they need sauve for their eyes and ears to hear if what you are saying that God puts His spirit in you first to see and hear???? I don't believe you really understand what Salvation is all about. There is only ONE GOSPEL that can save you, all others are accursed, and can not save a flea.
Paul preached, " Those who suffer with Him will be Glorified together with Him". So are you stating the luke warm are saved, but will never be Glorified together with Christ?
Roaringlamb, I can go on and on and on if you like, but to say man cannot know or hear unless they are first indwelt with the Holy Spirit to do so is a lie. OT Saints were not indwelt with the Holy Spirit, as Jesus said in John 6, the Holy Spirit had not been given yet. So if men are so totally depraved how do you explain these scriptures. I'll just start with these few:
Genesis 21:17
And God heard the voice of the lad( Ishmael) and the angel of God called to Hagar out of heaven, and said unto her, What aileth thee, Hagar? fear not; for God hath heard the voice of the lad where he is.
Exodus 4: 30
And Aaron spake all the words which the LORD had spoken unto Moses, and did the signs in the sight of the people.
31And the people believed: and when they heard that the LORD had visited the children of Israel, and that he had looked upon their affliction, then they bowed their heads and worshipped.
Or Here is a Great Chapter:
Exodus 35
1And Moses gathered all the congregation of the children of Israel together, and said unto them, These are the words which the LORD hath commanded, that ye should do them.
2Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.
3Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day.
4And Moses spake unto all the congregation of the children of Israel, saying, This is the thing which the LORD commanded, saying,
5Take ye from among you an offering unto the LORD: whosoever is of a willing heart, let him bring it, an offering of the LORD; gold, and silver, and brass,
6And blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine linen, and goats' hair,
7And rams' skins dyed red, and badgers' skins, and shittim wood,
8And oil for the light, and spices for anointing oil, and for the sweet incense,
9And onyx stones, and stones to be set for the ephod, and for the breastplate.
10And every wise hearted among you shall come, and make all that the LORD hath commanded;
11The tabernacle, his tent, and his covering, his taches, and his boards, his bars, his pillars, and his sockets,
12The ark, and the staves thereof, with the mercy seat, and the vail of the covering,
13The table, and his staves, and all his vessels, and the shewbread,
14The candlestick also for the light, and his furniture, and his lamps, with the oil for the light,
15And the incense altar, and his staves, and the anointing oil, and the sweet incense, and the hanging for the door at the entering in of the tabernacle,
16The altar of burnt offering, with his brasen grate, his staves, and all his vessels, the laver and his foot,
17The hangings of the court, his pillars, and their sockets, and the hanging for the door of the court,
18The pins of the tabernacle, and the pins of the court, and their cords,
19The cloths of service, to do service in the holy place, the holy garments for Aaron the priest, and the garments of his sons, to minister in the priest's office.
20And all the congregation of the children of Israel departed from the presence of Moses.
21And they came, every one whose heart stirred him up, and every one whom his spirit made willing, and they brought the LORD's offering to the work of the tabernacle of the congregation, and for all his service, and for the holy garments.
22And they came, both men and women, as many as were willing hearted, and brought bracelets, and earrings, and rings, and tablets, all jewels of gold: and every man that offered offered an offering of gold unto the LORD.
23And every man, with whom was found blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine linen, and goats' hair, and red skins of rams, and badgers' skins, brought them.
24Every one that did offer an offering of silver and brass brought the LORD's offering: and every man, with whom was found shittim wood for any work of the service, brought it.
25And all the women that were wise hearted did spin with their hands, and brought that which they had spun, both of blue, and of purple, and of scarlet, and of fine linen.
26And all the women whose heart stirred them up in wisdom spun goats' hair.
27And the rulers brought onyx stones, and stones to be set, for the ephod, and for the breastplate;
28And spice, and oil for the light, and for the anointing oil, and for the sweet incense.
29The children of Israel brought a willing offering unto the LORD, every man and woman, whose heart made them willing to bring for all manner of work, which the LORD had commanded to be made by the hand of Moses.
30And Moses said unto the children of Israel, See, the LORD hath called by name Bezaleel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah;
31And he hath filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship;
32And to devise curious works, to work in gold, and in silver, and in brass,
33And in the cutting of stones, to set them, and in carving of wood, to make any manner of cunning work.
34And he hath put in his heart that he may teach, both he, and Aholiab, the son of Ahisamach, of the tribe of Dan.
35Them hath he filled with wisdom of heart, to work all manner of work, of the engraver, and of the cunning workman, and of the embroiderer, in blue, and in purple, in scarlet, and in fine linen, and of the weaver, even of them that do any work, and of those that devise cunning work.
Or are you saying OT Saints were not saved?
Love in Christ
Katy-did |
| | 2007/8/8 9:15 | |
| | Re: | | These LUKE warm self professing Christians are NOT overcomers. But what does God have to say about overcoming? And what are we overcoming?
Does the church really know what her calling is? This will certainly make you think differently.
Please re-read with attached scripture concerning Overcoming.
15I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
17Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
19As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
20Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
22He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
Now, WHO are the overcomers, and how do we become an overcomer? Does it have something to do with the resurrection? I believe they are all connected.
Romans 6:5
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
John 11:25
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
******Revelation 2:11 (Extremely important verse) *****
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Rev 20:4-7 must be kept together!
Rev 20:4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Revelation 20: 5 - 7
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
John 5: 28 29
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Acts 23:6
But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.
1 Corinthians 15:12
Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
1 Corinthians 15:13
But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
1 Corinthians 15:21
For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1 Corinthians 15:42
So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
Philippians 3:10 & 11
That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
Hebrews 6:2
Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
*****(seems as though the author thought this to be the basic elementary doctrines of the faith)**** Now we press on
.
Hebrews 11:35
Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:
*******These were OT Saints who died before the death and resurrection of Christ, but are now with Christ
.Hebrews 12
.the spirits of Just men made perfect.
1 Peter 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
***Praise God,
so its about resurrection
not election as some may think.
1 Peter 3:21
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
Rev 20:4-7 must be kept together!
Rev 20:4
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Revelation 20:5
But the rest of the dead( this would not be saints as we are ALIVE, raised up together with him as we speak,, a NEW CREATION) lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Now concerning the OVERCOMERS. Can one be an overcomer without first being Romans 6:5
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
John 16:33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
How, through death and resurrection life? Yes, we are no longer a part of this world system
that belongs to anti-christ. 6 means man, unregenerate man
.7 means :1. perfect, 2. complete etc. this is who WE are **in Christ**
1 John 2:13
I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.
1 John 2:14
I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.
1 John 4:4
Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.******remember we are not of this world****
1 John 5:4
For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.***WOW, WHAT A PROMISE*** WE ARE OVERCOMERS!!!
1 John 5:5
Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? ***you see Jesus who said I AM THE RESURRECTION is also the same as He who overcomes, and WE In Christ are OVERCOMERS!
Revelation 2:7
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
Revelation 2:11
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Revelation 2:17
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
Revelation 2:26
And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: ( WOW..The Kingdom Reign)
Revelation 3:5
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Now thats a scarry thought huh? I didnt say it, but its there.
Revelation 3:12
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
Love in Christ
Katy-did |
| | 2007/8/8 10:24 | |
|
