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IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 on Justification

Dear saints

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved. AMEN.

To be Justified means to be proven to be Right. This is a consequence of Salvation. We are Saved and therefore proven to be Right by God by our acts, hence we are Justified by our works. Faith is necessary for Salvation and it is how we are Saved but thereafter the issue of Justification manifests itself in works which prove we are Right with God. And so we can say as James did that Abraham was Justified by works when he went to sacrifice Isaac. And we can also say with Paul that we are not Justified by works only but by Faith. The Faith must precede such that we are then Saved and thereafter we are Justified. The Pharisees did works but were not Justified because they didn't have the Faith required to be Saved so their acts were dead works.

Then the publican who acknowledged his sin was Justified (shown to be right with God) before GOd because he saw what he really was before GOd where the Pharisee didn't.

Grace and Peace be ours in Jesus' Name. AMEN.


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2007/7/28 17:42Profile
Nile
Member



Joined: 2007/3/28
Posts: 403
Raleigh, NC

 Re: on Justification

Thanks for the post IRONMAN, you explained it well and you also helped me see some things I hadn't seen before.

:-)
Nile


_________________
Matthew Miskiewicz

 2007/7/28 17:52Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
Nile wrote:
I'll the finish the equation...but first I'd like to know your response to my questions:
-------------------------------------------------

I understand your remark, but have one comment :-)

This might be minor, but how can you say that justification is [u]by faith alone[/u] when the scripture [u]explicitly[/u] says otherwise: "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and [u]not by faith only[/u]." (James 2:24) and also "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, [u]being alone[/u]." (James 2:17)

There is no verse that says justification is by faith alone, but there are verses that says it is not by faith alone. How then can we say, "Justification is by faith alone"?

Even if what your saying about faith and works is true, why say one thing when the scripture says another?

I did response to my questions in a way:

[b]Gal 3:22[/b] [color=990000]But the Scripture locked up all under sin, [b]that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to the ones believing.[/color]
Gal 3:26[/b] [color=990000]for you are all sons of God through [b]faith in Christ Jesus[/b].[/color]
If there was more, Paul would have definatly said so.

Bu I missed on here:
[b]Gal 2:16[/b] [color=990000]having perceived that a man is not being justified by works of law, [b]except alone through faith in Christ Jesus[/b], we also believe in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by the faith in Christ and not by works of law, seeing that by works of law shall no flesh at all be justified.[/color]

This "except alone through faith in Christ Jesus"
is in Greek:
εαν
except

μη
expresses an absolute denial
(nothing els but)

δια
through

πιστεως
faith

ιησου
Jesus

χριστου
Christ

Your turn :)

 2007/7/28 18:16Profile
Nile
Member



Joined: 2007/3/28
Posts: 403
Raleigh, NC

 Re:

"We are justified by faith alone, apart from any works."
True or false?

Quote:
If there was more, Paul would have definatly said so.



Indeed, so he did. Here are two examples:

Romans 2:6-7

Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by [u]patient continuance in well doing[/u] seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life

Romans 2:13
For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but [u]the doers of the law shall be justified[/u].

In answer to your previous questions, as far as I can discern...

Faith = Belief + Obedience = Salvation From Sin

We are not justified by faith alone because true faith is more than mere belief: true faith is belief and obedience. Even the demons "have faith" in God, but their faith has no obedience.

The thief on the cross was justified because he had true faith. Both thieves besides Jesus "believed" He was the Messiah, the Christ, but only one thief moved past mere belief to true faith, asking in humility that Jesus remember him when He enters into His kingdom.

Thanks for the questions, I hope I've explained some.

The grace of God unto godliness be with us,
Nile


_________________
Matthew Miskiewicz

 2007/7/28 18:59Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Brother, I don't believe that verse 13 has anything to do with what we are discussing here, as Paul was using this to show that the Law cannot save. As in those that boast of the Law, as this section is to the self righteous Jew, must keep every bit of the Law.
Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Note here later in the chapter
Rom 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, [b]if thou keep the law:[/b] but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

That is why in Chapter 3, Paul begins to paint the universal guilt of all Jew and Gentile alike, so that none could boast of anything. Then in Chapters 4 & 5, Paul lays out the justification God grants through and by faith in Christ.

And in answer to your question, yes a man is justified by faith without works. But that faith will work if it is a true justification.


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/7/28 19:16Profile
pastorfrin
Member



Joined: 2006/1/19
Posts: 1406


 Re:

“Who went about doing good.”
— Acts 10:38

Few words, but yet an exquisite miniature of the Lord Jesus Christ. There are not many touches, but they are the strokes of a master’s pencil. Of the Saviour and only of the Saviour is it true in the fullest, broadest, and most unqualified sense. “He went about doing good.” From this description it is evident that he did good personally. The evangelists constantly tell us that he touched the leper with his own finger, that he anointed the eyes of the blind, and that in cases where he was asked to speak the word only at a distance, he did not usually comply, but went himself to the sick bed, and there personally wrought the cure. A lesson to us, if we would do good, to do it ourselves. Give alms with your own hand; a kind look, or word, will enhance the value of the gift. Speak to a friend about his soul; your loving appeal will have more influence than a whole library of tracts. Our Lord’s mode of doing good sets forth his incessant activity! He did not only the good which came close to hand, but he “went about” on his errands of mercy. Throughout the whole land of Judea there was scarcely a village or a hamlet which was not gladdened by the sight of him. How this reproves the creeping, loitering manner, in which many professors serve the Lord. Let us gird up the loins of our mind, and be not weary in well doing. Does not the text imply that Jesus Christ went out of his way to do good? “He went about doing good.” He was never deterred by danger or difficulty. He sought out the objects of his gracious intentions. So must we. If old plans will not answer, we must try new ones, for fresh experiments sometimes achieve more than regular methods. Christ’s perseverance, and the unity of his purpose, are also hinted at, and the practical application of the subject may be summed up in the words, “He hath left us an example that we should follow in his steps.”

Spurgeon, C. H.

 2007/7/28 19:21Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3697
Ca.

 Re:

Christ justified us by His works because we could not justify ourselves by the works of the Law. We died to the Law and sin on the Cross.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Galatians 2:19-21 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Only the works of the Faith of Jesus Christ are now good works, and fruit unto the Father.

Galatians 2:16-19 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

Works cannot make us perfect unless it is the Christ in us that is doing the works through us.

Colossians 1:27-28 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Christ and Christ alone is our perfection, nothing we do can make us perfect, only the Christ in you will make us perfect. How do we become perfect?

Colossians 3:1-17 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory. Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience: In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them. But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all. Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye. And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness. And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, He is the only One through the Faith He gives us that can do the Greater works that He has already done.

Again we are dead and Christ is alive in us.
If we take over by works we are going right back to our old husband, Satan. Even Paul understood this and said that Christ was the only one that could do the work in him. Romans 7:23-25 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

It is Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Philippians 4:7-13 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus. Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you. But I rejoiced in the Lord greatly, that now at the last your care of me hath flourished again; wherein ye were also careful, but ye lacked opportunity. Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content. I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need. I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me. It is Jesus, Jesus, Jesus and Jesus alone the Is in us.

The war is in our minds, "think on these things", not in our works, or obedience, but His works and His obedience in us and through us as us.

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2007/7/28 23:23Profile









 Re:

I like the way Dan Corner, in his book "The Believers Conditional Security" puts it. He says saving faith is trusting and submitting from the heart. A saving faith is a trusting-submitting faith. That is true faith. And nothing else can be saving faith.

And that is precisely what St. James wrote about when attacking the easy-believism heresy. Faith is not an intellectual belief or an intellectual acknowledgement. Faith is trusting and submitting from the heart.

 2007/7/30 2:04
theopenlife
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 926


 Re:

I will agree if a man says "saving faith is always submissive faith" but I will weep "heretic" if someone says that "salvation is by faith [b]and[/b] submitting". This is the difference.

 2007/7/30 2:12Profile









 Re:

St. James said the true faith is not mere belief, which the devils have.

True faith consists in both heart believing and heart repentance. True faith consists in heart trusting-submitting. Trusting without submitting is not faith. Submitting without trusting is not faith. Faith is trusting and submitting, they are two sides of the same coin.

So none can be saved or justified who do not repent and believe from the heart.

 2007/7/30 2:53





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