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Whitestone42
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Joined: 2007/7/23
Posts: 2


 Justified by works

The way I read it in my bible. I am justified by faith in the blood of Jesus alone. Good Works are just a symptom of a true faith. If I truely believe something I will act accordingly. my works are not for justification they are because I love Jesus and I care about his reputation more than my own.Good works are important because according to 2 Cor 5:20 we are ambassadors for Christ. His representitives on the earth.

 2007/7/23 9:14Profile
reformer
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Joined: 2007/6/25
Posts: 764


 Re: Justified by works

the book of James spells it out clear for me. Its not because of my works I am saved, my good works are the result of my salvation and desire to please Him and be obedient.

 2007/7/28 12:20Profile
roaringlamb
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

A true God given justification will produce faith, love, and other works.

Notice the contrast that James uses.
James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: [b]the devils also believe, and tremble.[/b]

Now the demons will never be justified, though they believe that Christ is the Son of God. They do not have a justifying faith.

Of course, when the Spirit of God opens the heart of a person to believe the Gospel, faith is a fruit of that, as is repentance, and other works. you will not see these works from demons, thus again we see that their faith is enough to make them only tremble, but they will not submit to God's rule(nor can they).


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patrick heaviside

 2007/7/28 12:42Profile
Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re: Justified by works

Quote:
Whitestone42 wrote:
The way I read it in my bible. I am justified by faith in the blood of Jesus alone. Good Works are just a symptom of a true faith. If I truely believe something I will act accordingly. my works are not for justification they are because I love Jesus and I care about his reputation more than my own. Good works are important because according to 2 Cor 5:20 we are ambassadors for Christ. His representitives on the earth.

[b]Jas 2:21[/b] [color=990000]Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
[b]:22[/b] See how faith worked with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?[/color]
Here, James says that we are Justified by works.
Therefore is it by faith alone, but faith has works.
If one does not have works, it only prooves the lack of faith.

Example:
One doesn't work to get a job; one works because one has a job. You don't work to be saved; you work because you are saved.

 2007/7/28 12:56Profile
Nile
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Joined: 2007/3/28
Posts: 403
Raleigh, NC

 Re:

Quote:
Therefore is it by faith alone, but faith has works.



I understand your remark, but have one comment :-)

This might be minor, but how can you say that justification is [u]by faith alone[/u] when the scripture [u]explicitly[/u] says otherwise: "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and [u]not by faith only[/u]." (James 2:24) and also "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, [u]being alone[/u]." (James 2:17)

There is no verse that says justification is by faith alone, but there are verses that says it is not by faith alone. How then can we say, "Justification is by faith alone"?

Even if what your saying about faith and works is true, why say one thing when the scripture says another?

Nile


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Matthew Miskiewicz

 2007/7/28 14:46Profile
roaringlamb
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
There is no verse that says justification is by faith alone, but there are verses that says it is not by faith alone. How then can we say, "Justification is by faith alone"?



Luk 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

What work did this man do, aside from seeing his need of God's mercy?

Act 13:38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
Act 13:39 And [b]by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.[/b]

Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Rom 4:2 [b]For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.[/b]
Rom 4:3 [b]For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.[/b]

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Gal 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Tit 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

I think these seem pretty clear.

In my view the faith given by God to produce faith, produces works.


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patrick heaviside

 2007/7/28 14:58Profile
roaringlamb
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Here's some more-

Rom 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

Rom 4:5 But [b]to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.[/b]

Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Gal 3:8 And the scripture, [b]foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith,[/b] preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

And of course one the key verses in Martin Luther's conversion
Rom 1:17 For therein(in the Gospel) is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, [b]The just shall live by faith.[/b]


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patrick heaviside

 2007/7/28 15:43Profile
Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
Nile wrote:
Quote:
Therefore is it by faith alone, but faith has works.



I understand your remark, but have one comment :-)

This might be minor, but how can you say that justification is [u]by faith alone[/u] when the scripture [u]explicitly[/u] says otherwise: "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and [u]not by faith only[/u]." (James 2:24) and also "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, [u]being alone[/u]." (James 2:17)

There is no verse that says justification is by faith alone, but there are verses that says it is not by faith alone. How then can we say, "Justification is by faith alone"?

Even if what your saying about faith and works is true, why say one thing when the scripture says another?


Please finish the equation...

Faith + [b]?[/b] = Salvation

What did the Thief on the cross have to add to his faith in order to secure his place in Paradise?

[b]Gal 3:22[/b] [color=990000]But the Scripture locked up all under sin, [b]that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to the ones believing.[/color]
Gal 3:26[/b] [color=990000]for you are all sons of God through [b]faith in Christ Jesus[/b].[/color]
If there was more, Paul would have definatly said so.

However, the work of faith is love:
[b]Gal 5:6[/b] [color=990000]For in Christ Jesus, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any strength, but [b]faith working through love.[/b][/color]
Compare:
[b]James 2:15-16[/b] [color=990000]But if a brother or a sister is naked and may be lacking in daily food,
[b]:16[/b] and any one of you say to them, Go in peace, be warmed and filled, but does not give them the things the body needs, what is the benefit?[/color]
Compare:
[b]1Johnn 3:17[/b] Whoever has the means of life of the world, and sees his brother having need, and shuts up his heart of compassion from him, [b]how does the love of God abide in him[/b]?[/color]
Therefore, if one does not have love, their faith is dead, because love is the work of faith.
[b]1Corinth 13:2-3[/b] [color=990000] And if I should have prophecy and should be perceiving all secrets and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith, so as to transport mountains, yet have no love, [b]I am nothing.
:3[/b] And if ever I should be morselling out all my possessions, and if I should be giving up my body, that I should be boasting, yet may have no love, [b]in nothing do I benefit[/b].[/color]

I am nothing & in nothing do I benefit.

[u]Barnes[/u] Commentary puts this as:
[i][b]It profiteth me nothing[/b] - If there is no true piety, there can be no benefit in this to my soul. It will not save me. If I have no true love to God, I must perish, after all. “Love,” therefore, is more valuable and precious than all these endowments. Nothing can supply its place; nothing can be connected with salvation without it.
[b]I am nothing[/b] - All would be of no value. it would not save me. I should still be an unredeemed, unpardoned sinner. I should do good to no one; I should answer none of the great purposes which God has designed; I should not by all this secure my salvation. All would be in vain in regard to the great purpose of my existence. None of these things could be placed before God as a ground of acceptance in the Day of Judgment. Unless I should have love, I should still be lost. A somewhat similar idea is expressed by the Saviour, in regard to the Day of Judgment, in [b]Mat7:22-23[/b] [color=990000]“Many will say unto me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”[/color][/i]

 2007/7/28 16:02Profile
Nile
Member



Joined: 2007/3/28
Posts: 403
Raleigh, NC

 Re:

Quote:

Please finish the equation...

Faith + ? = Salvation

What did the Thief on the cross have to add to his faith in order to secure his place in Paradise?



I'll the finish the equation...but first I'd like to know your response to my questions:

Quote:
There is no verse that says justification is by faith alone, but there are verses that says it is not by faith alone. How then can we say, "Justification is by faith alone"?

Even if what your saying about faith and works is true, why say one thing when the scripture says another?



Thanks,
Nile


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Matthew Miskiewicz

 2007/7/28 16:13Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

See, this is the difference between a God given faith in which that person will persevere in faith and good works, and that faith that we see much of in today's church which is like what Jesus said about those who hear the word, and rejoice, but fall away in trials.

The saving faith given by God will produce works, as there is no true justification apart from sanctification(process of being formed into the image of Christ).


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patrick heaviside

 2007/7/28 16:24Profile





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