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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : I am justified by works, and not by faith alone.

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 Re:

Quote:

running2win wrote:
Quote:
in a nutshell, are saying one must be perfect to come God or Christ as it must be gift of some sort. Is that not so?


Not remotely. That's not even remotely related to what I was saying.




Good. Then perhaps you might like to clear things up for me who apparently didn't read you correctly?

 2007/7/24 15:52
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

Ironman,

I need prayer also if you are wrong, but my spirit agrees with your spirit, by the Spirit of Christ that is in us. Also the Holy Spirit Teacher reveals this truth in agreement with the Spirit of Christ, that this is who He, The Holy Spirit teaches only Christ and will not speak of Himself.

In Christ: by One Spirit which we are baptized into: Phillip


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Phillip

 2007/7/24 15:59Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Bro Phillip me too! :-D


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patrick heaviside

 2007/7/24 16:08Profile









 Re:

Brothers it is only by HIS grace I am saved. It will be by HIS mercy I don't bust hell wide open. Since my repentance and recieving HIS forgiveness I have committed sins. I don't even like the thought of confessing sins to my brothers and sisters in writing and I sure don't enjoy confessing it to HIM. But I feel a great need to when HE brings them to my attention. Before I was saved I never felt bad about any sin especially my own sins. But I can see a want-to in my life, a supernatural change that wasn't there before I was saved, that only HE can give. In view of the new want-to that only HE can give after I was saved and filled with HIS spirit I have sinned less. I am not sin-less only in that he has justified me by HIS blood.

Paul and James seem to have been contridicting each other but actually they were not. In fact James was only confirming and complimenting Paul.


Eph 2:8-10
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
KJV

The best analogy of grace vs works that I had heard is.

A saved person is endwelled with God's Spirit.

If you would imagine with me that person is a fireplace and Paul is looking at the fire from inside the house that God has built. James who said "faith without works is dead" was standing outside the house and seeing smoke come out of the chimney. So by seeing the smoke coming out he knew there was a fire in the fireplace. Paul knew Jesus was the only one that could light the fire. We are not saved by works but unto good works. It is not our works but HIS. Not by our power our our might, but by HIS SPIRIT For it HIM thats works in us both to will and to do.
Are we seeing any smoke come out of our chimney?

Examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith.

2 Cor 13:5-10
5 Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you-unless, of course, you fail the test? 6 And I trust that you will discover that we have not failed the test. 7 Now we pray to God that you will not do anything wrong. Not that people will see that we have stood the test but that you will do what is right even though we may seem to have failed. 8 For we cannot do anything against the truth, but only for the truth. 9 We are glad whenever we are weak but you are strong; and our prayer is for your perfection. 10 This is why I write these things when I am absent, that when I come I may not have to be harsh in my use of authority-the authority the Lord gave me for building you up, not for tearing you down.

We need to stand outside our fleshly house daily and look and see and examine if we see any smoke coming out of the chimney, if not, maybe the Jesus hadn't started the fire yet.

Faith without works is dead. No fire.






 2007/7/24 16:26
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

So, if in fact faith is not enough for salvation, what about our Lord's words here-
Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and [b]him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.[/b]
Joh 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
Joh 6:39 And [b]this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. [/b]
Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, [b]that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.[/b]

Now we now that Scripture doesn't contradict itself, especially when God incarnate, the very Author is speaking. So either we are wrong to presume salvation which begins with justification may be had and then lost, or Christ was wrong in stating this.

I take the former :-D


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patrick heaviside

 2007/7/24 17:18Profile
running2win
Member



Joined: 2007/5/15
Posts: 231
Bowmansville Penssylvania USA

 Re:

moe_mac, you ought to be a preacher! :-D
Your post so blessed me, you expressed these truths wonderfully. Thank you. God bless you brother.


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Jeff Mollman

 2007/7/24 17:21Profile
Nile
Member



Joined: 2007/3/28
Posts: 403
Raleigh, NC

 Re:

moe_mac, a quick comment: Penitence is not Repentance. Godly sorrow leads to repentance, that is, turning from sin, stopping sin, ceasing to sin, not sinning again. Worldly sorrow leads to death. There is a difference!

Quote:

roaringlamb wrote:
So, if in fact faith is not enough for salvation, what about our Lord's words here-
Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and [b]him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.[/b]
Joh 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
Joh 6:39 And [b]this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. [/b]
Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, [b]that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.[/b]

Now we now that Scripture doesn't contradict itself, especially when God incarnate, the very Author is speaking. So either we are wrong to presume salvation which begins with justification may be had and then lost, or Christ was wrong in stating this.

I take the former :-D



These passages say nothing about a person forfeiting salvation. They are talking about Christ's faithfulness. He will not lose any given to Him. He is faithful to the end. The question is, are we?

1 Corinthians 9:26-27
Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, [b]lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.[/b]

Did Paul doubt Christ's ability to not lose him?

Nile


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Matthew Miskiewicz

 2007/7/24 17:28Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.

Did Paul doubt Christ's ability to not lose him?



No, because this does not mean he will be, it is a warning not to be.

It would be like me telling you, "if you play in the street, you will get hit by a car."

So should I assume now that you will?

One verse does not negate a host of others. Paul is not a schizophrenic, he would not write, "I am persuaded that nothing shall seperate me from the love of God in Christ Jesus" if that could happen. He also said, "For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: [b]for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.[/b] 2Timothy 1:12

Paul constantly looked to Another as his means of righteousness, and source for strength.


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patrick heaviside

 2007/7/24 17:46Profile









 Re:

Quote:

chiefosiners wrote:
You do know this is another gospel. Beware of the curse.



Chief, I'm not a big arguer (sp?) but I just wanted to share what I listened to earlier today: [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=11404&commentView=itemComments]A Call to Holy Living[/url] by C. H. Spurgeon today. This is the first time I've listened to any of his sermons. Wow!!

He gives an excellent explanation about works, I think anyway!! For myself I typed out the last few minutes and what do you know it fits this topic! Who knew? You guys probably already covered this and if you did, sorry, just ignore me!! Here it is:

First, by our fruits we are to be known. Men will never know us by our faith that is within us. They know us by our works which are visible to them. Bring forth therefore the fruits of grace that the world may know that you have been with Jesus. Remember also, that works are to be evidence (at) the last, it is consistent with the Gospel of Grace no doubt for it is a truth clearly revealed that we should be judged according to the deeds done in the body whether they be good or whether they be evil. And you know when the Lord gives us a description of the Judgment, he did not say to his disciples, "Ye believed in me or Ye loved me." These were secret matters. But he said, "For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was sick and in prison, and ye visited me." It is by your works ye shall be judged. Oh believers, may grace enable you to abound in them.

It is by such works that the mouths of gainsayers are to be stopped. One holy action is a better arguement against blasphemers than a thousand elequent discourses. You are our replies to skeptics. You who have been rescued from sin maintain a life of holiness. When they see the men that are healed standing with Peter and John, they can say nothing against them. Oh by your works confound gainsayers.

These works too, bring glory to God that they seeing your good works and glorify your Father which is in heaven. (Matt 5.16). These works also ensure peace to your own conscience and have much to do with your close communion with God. How can two walk together except they be agreed? If you walk contrary to him, he will walk contrary to you. Your sins will separate between you and your God but the Holy Spirit where he maintains holiness maintains peace and communion in the soul. If ye abide in me and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will and it shall be done unto you. If ye keep my keep my commandments saith the Saviour, ye shall abide in my love; ye shall abide in the consious fellowship of that love and in the enjoyment of it. May God help you. May God help you for his name sake.

Look ye here, ye who say you believe in Christ and are living in sin. What does this make of your boastings? Look ye here, ye that say I have only to believe by and by and I may live as I like and yet be saved. Is it so? Is it so? And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the wicked appear? (1 Peter 4.18) As for those whose ungodly lives stare them in the face so far from being saved by their pretended faith, they are trees twice dead plucked up by the roots. If they say they continue in sin that grace may abound, their damnation is just. The salvaton of Christ is not a salvation "IN" sin but a salvation "FROM" sin. They who would be saved by him must come and trust him just as they are and he will enable them to forsake their sin but while they continue to say we will take pleasure in sin there is no salvation possible for them.

God bring us to Christ and nail our sins to his cross and give us life in our Saviour's life. Amen

 2007/7/24 19:57
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 If we are indeed deceived, we need help...

bros Phillip and Roaringlamb

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose BLood we are Saved.AMEN.

well if indeed we are deceived and are so thoroughly convinced of these things, then we are in dire need of help. Yet there is something which comes when God Imparts something to you; when God deals with you and makes things plain, there is a surety which comes with that. it is not arrogant but a Jealousy for that thing of God which simply won't waver no matter what. i feel this is what we share, if it isn't then we really need your prayers dear saints.

Grace and Peace be ours in Jesus' Name. AMEN.


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Farai Bamu

 2007/7/25 0:07Profile





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