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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : I am justified by works, and not by faith alone.

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 Re:

Why did you leave out verse 10

Eph 2:10
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.KJV


Rom 8:1-5
8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
KJV

 2007/7/23 15:42
InTheLight
Member



Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2736
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re:

Nile, here is what you wrote in your original post;

Quote:
So, a man seeking to be justified by faith and works, will argue this at the judgment: "God, I admit to having once been a rebellious and wicked sinner. However, I repented of my sins and obeyed You the remainder of my life.



In your last post you said;
Quote:
Why would I boast in my obedience? A servant does what he is told and expects no reward. My forgiveness comes from God alone and not from myself. I have nothing to boast of.



Now, if you expect no reward for your obedience, why would you be mentioning it at the judgment seat? I think we will be pleading the blood of Christ alone. Father, just as I am I come to you with no defense of my own other than you have bid me to come because of what Jesus has done, I come.

Quote:
This living faith that is required to be saved, what does it believe?



It believes that God has reconciled me to Himself through the life, death, and resurrection of His Son Jesus Christ. Beyond just what it believes, there is the need for this belief to be not just from the head but from a heart turned toward God. "My son, give me thine heart, and let thine eyes observe my ways."(Pro 23:26). When a man believes in that way and his heart is filled with the Spirit he will indeed detest sin and trust and obey the Lord but his confidence and assurance will not be in his obedience, it will be in the work of Christ and the promise of God that that work has satisfied Him.

In Christ,

Ron


_________________
Ron Halverson

 2007/7/23 15:59Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Perfect Obedience is the requirement for a man to approach God. It always has been, and always will be.

Now from whence comes this perfect obedience?

If you say "man must..", then you bypass the life of complete obedience of Christ, which is imputed to our account. It must be, or we have no hope of salvation.

Consider these verses-
Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth

Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: [b]for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.[/b]
Gal 3:22 [b]But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe[/b]

We need a perfect righteousness in place for us to come to God, not just when we die, but every moment of every day. If Christ is not that righteousness that is ever before God, then what hope do I have in coming to God? How could Paul say in Hebrews, "come boldly to throne of grace, to obtain mercy in time of need" if we had to come by our own merit?

Much of this argument is based either upon a faulty conception of what God requires to come to Him, or a misunderstanding of Christ's work for us. I by no means have mastered this, but this is a huge issue if we are to walk with our God, and bring glory to Him.


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/7/23 16:11Profile









 Re:

Quote:

roaringlamb wrote:
Perfect Obedience is the requirement for a man to approach God. It always has been, and always will be.



Where does it say that????

Quote:
Now from whence comes this perfect obedience?

If you say "man must..", then you bypass the life of complete obedience of Christ, which is imputed to our account. It must be, or we have no hope of salvation.



Only if you believe faith is the gift and not Grace. Also, to whom is the righteousness of Christ imputed except to those who come to Him.

Quote:
Consider these verses-
Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth

Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: [b]for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.[/b]
Gal 3:22 [b]But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe[/b]



Consider your mis-application of those scriptures.

Quote:
We need a perfect righteousness in place for us to come to God, not just when we die, but every moment of every day.




Nonsense! Where then is maturing in Christ a necessary event in any Christians life? He already is in your explanation.

Quote:
If Christ is not that righteousness that is ever before God, then what hope do I have in coming to God?



Your hope is in being reconciled by the Blood of the Lamb that you might LEARN obedience as Jesus did. ..... to become a Divine Son as He became. Its called "Joint-Heir-ship."

Quote:
How could Paul say in Hebrews, "come boldly to throne of grace, to obtain mercy in time of need" if we had to come by our own merit?



And if the righteousness OF Christ is complete in us, AS YOU SAY, then how come we need mercy??? .. which we don't, after we are born again. After all Heaven is no longer the goal, correct?

Quote:
Much of this argument is based either upon a faulty conception of what God requires to come to Him, or a misunderstanding of Christ's work for us. I by no means have mastered this, but this is a huge issue if we are to walk with our God, and bring glory to Him.



I first would say, get understanding.....and then you will know this apart of it is no mystery, nor is it complicated.

 2007/7/23 18:02
rowdy2
Member



Joined: 2007/1/21
Posts: 528
Southern USA

 Re: I am justified by works, and not by faith alone.

WE are justified by faith in Christ Jesus, a sacrificial gift from God for our suffering and obedience . We have received many spiritual gifts from God after we are justified and two of these gifts are love and charity, they do the works. We have been warned not to hide our treasures in the ground. Some don’t seem to put to much stock in heavenly treasures because of a false sense of security from self righteousness.
Eddie


_________________
Eddie

 2007/7/23 21:14Profile









 Re:

[b]DISTINCTION BETWEEN THE GROUND AND CONDITIONS[/b]

[b]Question[/b] Are sinners condemned because of God's wrath or because of their sin?

[b]Answer:[/b] Sinners are condemned by God's wrath, because of their sin.

The ground of condemnation is God's justice (wrath) but the condition of condemnation is man's sin.

Now consider:

[b]Question[/b] Are saints saved because of God's grace or because of their repentance and faith?

[b]Answer[/b] Saints are saved by God's grace (made possible by the atonement) upon condition of their repentance and faith, and finally upon condition of their perseverence to the end.

So I hope that helps to see the proper distinction between the [b]ground[/b] of justification and the [b]conditions[/b] of justification.

Also see "Lecture on Justification" by Charles G. Finney in his Systematic Theology.

 2007/7/24 5:34









 Re:

Quote:

rowdy2 wrote:
WE are justified by faith in Christ Jesus, a sacrificial gift from God for our suffering and obedience . We have received many spiritual gifts from God after we are justified and two of these gifts are love and charity, they do the works. We have been warned not to hide our treasures in the ground. Some don’t seem to put to much stock in heavenly treasures because of a false sense of security from self righteousness.
Eddie



Since love/charity is a requirement, how is it a gift? Can you make some distinctions about what the scriptures actually say?

 2007/7/24 6:05









 Re:

Quote:

Lazarus1719 wrote:
[b]DISTINCTION BETWEEN THE GROUND AND CONDITIONS[/b]

[b]Question[/b] Are sinners condemned because of God's wrath or because of their sin?

[b]Answer:[/b] Sinners are condemned by God's wrath, because of their sin.



Lets try seeing this a slight bit different, but yet the same.

Sin is s relationship. God's wrath is against sin; against the relationship man has with it. Man must needs understand that. His Holiness will not permit it in His presence. The willful relationship man has with sin brings him into the same condemnation. Sin is dealt with by the Blood of Jesus. That is salvation for mankind. To be clear, it is NOT the born again experience.

Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now you say, 'We see.' Therefore your sin remains. John 9:41 (NKJV)

 2007/7/24 6:16
running2win
Member



Joined: 2007/5/15
Posts: 231
Bowmansville Penssylvania USA

 Ormly

Quote:
God's wrath is against sin...

...His Holiness will not permit it in His presence.


According to this statement then we [i]do[/i] need Christ's perfect righteousness to approach God. This is inconsistant with what you said earlier. Christian maturing is growing in [i]grace[/i] and in the [i]knowledge[/i] of Jesus Christ. As I mature spiritually I am simply learning to live as Jesus lived- not becoming more and more righteous. It seems to me as though you are trying to refute all that roaringlamb said without any back up for your own ideas. You say this or that is wrong without saying why it's wrong or what's right. Your arguments seem like groundless oppinions. Perhaps you could explain why you believe the way you do on these matters, then they would be more carefully discussed rather than assumed to be nothing more than an attack on what someone says.


_________________
Jeff Mollman

 2007/7/24 8:16Profile









 Re: Ormly

We ourselves [i]actually[/i] need to be made holy through Jesus Christ, by obeying the Spirit. If we ourselves are not [i]actually[/i] holy, we will not go to Heaven.

There is no mystical covering for unrepentant sins. There is no "righteousness" that blinds God so that He cannot see our sin. God sees them alright. He said to the Churches in Revelations, "I see your works...repent". He did not say, "I see the righteousness of Christ."

True imputed righteousness is the forgiveness of repented sins. There is no imputed righteousness for "past, present, and future sins" because only repented sins are forgivable. Having a imputed righteousness covering, while yourself actually being unrighteous, is a delusion.

If we do not cease from evil in this life, if we do not go and sin no more in this life, the grave will not be our Savior, death will not give us new hearts. We need to actually be righteous in this life in order to be with God here and hereafter.

1Jo 2:29 - If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that [b]doeth righteousness[/b] is born of him.

1Jo 3:7 - Little children, [b][u]let no man deceive you[/u]: he that [u]doeth righteousness[/u] is righteous, [/b]even as he is righteous.

Romans 4 says that it is our own faith, (faith includes repenting and believing) which is imputed to us for righteousness. Our own faith God considers as righteousness.

 2007/7/24 8:34





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