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Nile
Member



Joined: 2007/3/28
Posts: 403
Raleigh, NC

 I am justified by works, and not by faith alone.

Heresy?!?! or scripture:

[b]James 2:24
You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.[/b]

[b]1. What is Justification[/b]
To be justified is to be freed from the guilt and penalty of past sins. There are various ways to be justified (for example, if a man breaks the speed limit while rushing to the emergency room, the man is justified in doing so because getting to the emergency room is more important than obeying the speed limit; no just judge will make a man pay a fine in this circumstance), but for the sake of this discussion, we shall only consider justification by pardon, that is, when God forgives a man and declares his past sins absolved without the man actually paying the penalty of the law and without the man being declared right in breaking the law. In such a case, the man is blameless before the law, for the Judge, being the perfect preserver of justice and law, has declared him so.

[b]2. What is Justification by Works Alone[/b]
To be justified by works is to be pardoned of sins on account of subsequent or previous obedience to the law (works). If a man obeys the law for years without blame but happens to stumble in one point, and then proceeds to argue that he should be acquitted because he has kept the law for years up to this point - that is an appeal to justification by works. It would be akin to Adam, after the fall and after God's judgment, saying, "But God, this was the first time I broke the law - I am otherwise blameless! Surely you will take that into account and pardon my sin." Likewise, a sinner at the judgment seat might argue, "I admit to lying and cussing and drinking. But I've done many good things in my life, I've obeyed the other points of the law. Surely You will take these things into account and pardon my small sins." This is justification by works alone, which will secure a pardon for no man, for, among other things, it subverts justice, sets aside the law, and mars the reputation of the Judge.

[b]3. What is Justification by Faith Alone[/b]
To be justified by faith alone is to be pardoned of sins simply because one has believed God will pardon him. (It may also be said "simply because one has believed in Jesus Christ".) Perhaps the sinner has faith that God is merciful, loving, and forgiving - things that are indeed true! The sinner might also believe that God is just and upholds the law. In fact, if it is possible, the sinner might comprehend the divine godhead more than even the apostle Paul or Peter, but this comprehension, this faith in who God is, will not save the sinner if he appeals to it and it alone. It is like a man, appearing on his day of court after he has lied, stolen, murdered, and raped, and saying to the judge with no apparent conviction, sorrow, or intent to change, "Judge, I freely admit to the crimes I am charged with. However, I know without doubt that you are a loving and merciful judge! I even know that you are a just judge who upholds the law - what a righteous judge you are, sir! Indeed, you are so righteous and just, that I have faith that you will pardon me and not hold my transgressions against me!" What an abomination!!! What an insult to the judge! What a joke! How preposterous is it to think of a judge pardoning such a man! Jesus has told us how He will respond to such men, "I never knew you! Depart from Me, you workers of iniquity!" And yet, this seems to be the prevailing view in contemporary Christianity. Faith, faith, and nothing but faith. Nothing but faith sends you nowhere but hell.

[b]4. What is Justification by Faith and Works[/b]
To be justified by faith and works is to be pardoned of sins by having faith that God will pardon those who obey Him and then proceeding to obey Him. So faith and works (practical obedience) work together to obtain pardon from God. God is able to pardon those who have faith in Him and obey Him because of the death of Jesus Christ. (See "The Atonement" by Albert Barnes for a thorough examining of this.) So, a man seeking to be justified by faith and works, will argue this at the judgment: "God, I admit to having once been a rebellious and wicked sinner. However, I repented of my sins and obeyed You the remainder of my life. Oh God, You Yourself have declared, "When the wicked turns from his wickedness and does what is lawful and right, he shall live because of it." (Ezekiel 33:19) Oh Lord, the Faithful and True, I know You will keep Your word and pardon Your servant who was once wicked but has turned to You. Furthermore, I know You are fully justified in pardoning my sins because of the death of Your Son, Jesus Christ, in whom I believe to Your good pleasure. Let the God of the world judge rightly." Amen!!! By words like these, whether verbally spoken or understood in the heart, will the saints enter heaven! The saints of God will be justified not only by their faith, but also by their works. By their obedience they will be justified, for God has declared He will justify those who obey Him.

Glory be to God who judges rightly over all people!
Praise be to God who sent Jesus Christ that we might be saved!
Thanks be to God who has given us His holiness by His Holy Spirit!
The Majesty of majesties is the Lord God our Father!

=D

For more on this subject:
[url=http://www.gospeltruth.net/Barnes_atonement/barnesindex.htm]The Atonement by Albert Barnes[/url]
[url=http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8212125836594796606&q=mike+Desario&total=52&start=0&num=20&so=1&type=search&plindex=10]Examine Yourself video by Mike DeSario[/url]


_________________
Matthew Miskiewicz

 2007/7/22 20:34Profile









 Re: I am justified by works, and not by faith alone.

You do know this is another gospel. Beware of the curse.

 2007/7/22 22:00
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re: I am justified by works, and not by faith alone.

Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Rom 4:25 (Christ)Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Rom 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

I think all of these pretty much answer the question.

Because you believe a man regenerates himself, I suppose you are threatended by justification by faith alone as were the Jews in Paul's day who demanded that sinners must do something other than believe in Christ for justification. Some form of outward proof must be shown, or done to earn God's favour. Paul said these were to be accursed, not heralded as true teachers.

But if you believed that God and God alone gives faith through the regenerated heart, and that faith is a fruit of the new birth, and not the cause, then you would see how faith will have works. Tue justifying faith will have works of repentance, godliness, etc., and it will not be manipulated, or unproductive.

It is much like this. Say you want to run in the Olympics, so you go to find out what must be done to do so. You are told you must qualify in the time alloted to make it. Whle at the qualifying meet, you notice that other runners have very developed leg muscles, and the majority of them are very thin.

Now it would be foolish to say that in order to make it to the Olympics you must have developed leg muscles, and be thin as those are traits of those who are qualifying, but not the determining factor of making it to the Olympics, as there are many who have developed leg muscles, but did not or cannot meet the qualifying time. The only ones who qualify are the ones who meet the criteria for qualification.

You are doing a similar thing by saying that good works are traits of those who are justified, therefore only those who do good works are justified. You are blurring the doctrines of justification and sanctification.

Consider Paul's descriptions of the Christians in Philippi-
Php 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

These trusted Christ fully for their justification, and put no confidence in their flesh as a means of justification.

All throughout Church History, it seems that whenever the Church becomes weak, there arise groups bent on getting Christians to "do something" to prove their justification. Unfortunately much of this ends in burn out, and even falling away because much of it is rooted in the flesh.

Brother I will tell you from my own experience, I have never hungered after holiness, and purity more, and the reason is that I know my salvation is sure, and out of love for Him who freed me, I want to be what He requires, and enables me to be. Grace gives all it requires, while the Law say do this, make bricks without straw, and you shall live. But that is a lie as it only leads to bondage and death.

Satan loves to get us to look to anything other than Christ for our sufficiency, but the child of God is safely tucked into Christ where no demon, nor anything else can touch him without the permission of the Father.


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/7/22 22:20Profile
jarona
Member



Joined: 2007/7/3
Posts: 162
The Earth

 Re: I am justified by works, and not by faith alone.

Nile, are you trying to say that ones own righteousness can save them?


_________________
Jaron

 2007/7/22 22:54Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Nile, are you trying to say that ones own righteousness can save them?



I would hope he is only saying what the scripture says, that true faith is accompanied by works... or to watch my wording, that true faith results in good works while dead faith results in no such thing.

In Christ - Jim

 2007/7/22 23:08
InTheLight
Member



Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2736
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re: I am justified by works, and not by faith alone.

Quote:
God, I admit to having once been a rebellious and wicked sinner. However, I repented of my sins and obeyed You the remainder of my life.



So then what happens when I haven't obeyed perfectly for the remainder of my life? Having been saved am I now under obligation to keep the law that could not save me, with the comfort of knowing that if I do not succeed Christ will intervene again and forgive my sins, but will do so with the object of again placing me under an obligation to keep the law?

I see a very different approach in the New Testament.

In Christ,

Ron


_________________
Ron Halverson

 2007/7/23 0:09Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
I see a very different approach in the New Testament.



[b]In Christ[/b]

Brother Ron, I borrowed your closing comment as it presents the New Testament approach precisely as a Child of God stands.

Here is the cornerstone of Christianity, we are united to our Head by the Spirit upon new birth.

Now we can see why Paul would ask-
Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, [b]Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?[/b]


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/7/23 0:31Profile









 Re:

One is justified by working faith, a faith that works. A true faith is not without repentance and obedience. True faith includes true repentance and true obedience. And true obedience and true repentance includes true faith. They are in an inseperable chain that cannot be broken.

True faith is not a mere intellectual belief or a mere doctrinal affirmation. True faith is of the heart, and consists in both believing and repenting. Faith is an attitude of the heart. Repenting and believing are states of the heart.

So we are justified, in the day of conversion, by God's grace, upon condition of true faith, which consists in both repenting and believing.

Fletchers Checks to Antinomianism is an entire defense of the Wesleys Methodist doctrine that a sinner is justified by faith in the day of salvation, but that a believer is justified by the evidence of works on the day of judgment.

Fletcher and Wesley made some good points on it, for example Jesus who said "by thy words thy shall be justified and by the words they shall be condemned." And Paul who said "it is not the hearers of the law, but the doers of the law that shall be justified". Jesus and Paul both said "shall be" which is why Wesley and Fletcher said it must be referring to the day of judgment.

But at conversion, a sinner is justified by God's grace made accessable through the atonement, when the sinner repents and believes from the heart. Unless a sinner turns from all sin and puts his faith in Jesus Christ, God cannot justify or forgive him.

Justification can come only AFTER a sinner repents (turns) from sin and believes (trusts) in the grace made accessable through the atonement of Christ. Until a sinner turns (repents) and trusts (believes) they are in a state of condemnation abiding under God's wrath.

 2007/7/23 0:48
Nile
Member



Joined: 2007/3/28
Posts: 403
Raleigh, NC

 Re:

Quote:

jarona wrote:
Nile, are you trying to say that ones own righteousness can save them?



No! It is only God who saves, and that by faith in Him (Eph 2:8-10). God is the only one who can save a sinner - nothing that sinner can do will save them without God. However with God, there are things a sinner can do to be saved. He can repent and believe the gospel for the remission of sins (Mark 1:15).

Thanks for the question, I hope that explains.

Quote:
So then what happens when I haven't obeyed perfectly for the remainder of my life? Having been saved am I now under obligation to keep the law that could not save me, with the comfort of knowing that if I do not succeed Christ will intervene again and forgive my sins, but will do so with the object of again placing me under an obligation to keep the law?



I would point to these scriptures:
Hebrews 10:26
For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins
1 John 3:6-9
Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him. Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

Quote:
Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?



If you look at the context, Paul is speaking about salvation coming from the Jewish law, which is impossible.

roaringlamb, do you believe that if you willfully break the law after having begun in the Spirit that you will be saved?
Or do you believe that you must continue to obey?

Nile


_________________
Matthew Miskiewicz

 2007/7/23 6:59Profile









 Re:

Quote:

roaringlamb wrote:
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Rom 4:25 (Christ)Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Rom 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

I think all of these pretty much answer the question.

Because you believe a man regenerates himself, I suppose you are threatended by justification by faith alone as were the Jews in Paul's day who demanded that sinners must do something other than believe in Christ for justification. Some form of outward proof must be shown, or done to earn God's favour. Paul said these were to be accursed, not heralded as true teachers.

But if you believed that God and God alone gives faith through the regenerated heart, and that faith is a fruit of the new birth, and not the cause, then you would see how faith will have works. Tue justifying faith will have works of repentance, godliness, etc., and it will not be manipulated, or unproductive.

It is much like this. Say you want to run in the Olympics, so you go to find out what must be done to do so. You are told you must qualify in the time alloted to make it. Whle at the qualifying meet, you notice that other runners have very developed leg muscles, and the majority of them are very thin.

Now it would be foolish to say that in order to make it to the Olympics you must have developed leg muscles, and be thin as those are traits of those who are qualifying, but not the determining factor of making it to the Olympics, as there are many who have developed leg muscles, but did not or cannot meet the qualifying time. The only ones who qualify are the ones who meet the criteria for qualification.

You are doing a similar thing by saying that good works are traits of those who are justified, therefore only those who do good works are justified. You are blurring the doctrines of justification and sanctification.

Consider Paul's descriptions of the Christians in Philippi-
Php 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

These trusted Christ fully for their justification, and put no confidence in their flesh as a means of justification.

All throughout Church History, it seems that whenever the Church becomes weak, there arise groups bent on getting Christians to "do something" to prove their justification. Unfortunately much of this ends in burn out, and even falling away because much of it is rooted in the flesh.

Brother I will tell you from my own experience, I have never hungered after holiness, and purity more, and the reason is that I know my salvation is sure, and out of love for Him who freed me, I want to be what He requires, and enables me to be. Grace gives all it requires, while the Law say do this, make bricks without straw, and you shall live. But that is a lie as it only leads to bondage and death.

Satan loves to get us to look to anything other than Christ for our sufficiency, but the child of God is safely tucked into Christ where no demon, nor anything else can touch him without the permission of the Father.



Your lack of distinctions makes your post read as another gospel.

 2007/7/23 7:55





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