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 Re:

We cannot be absolutely or infitely perfect, neither in this life or the next. We can only have moral perfection in this life (and physical perfection in the next, with a glorified body).

But moral perfect is not being physically perfect so as to never have involuntary emotions and feelings. And moral perfection is not being intellectually perfect so that you know everything without fault. And moral perfection is not being free from all unintentional mistakes since we do have finite understanding.

But moral perfection is having a pure and perfect heart before God, which consists in a benevolent intention or a loving heart. Because love (which is benevolent intention from the heart, manifest into action whenever possible and necessary) fullfills the whole law, so that He that loves is a perfect man, in respect to his heart.

Quote:
Just another false teacher denying the Lord jesus Christ.



False teachers, who deny the LORD Jesus, are those who say you don't need to repent (turn) from all sin in order to be saved, who say that Jesus does not need to be your Lord in order to be your Savior. False teachers say you can first take Jesus as your Savior, and then later decide if you want Him as your Lord. So they teach the forgiveness of sins without preaching the surrending of sins. And that is the greatest heresy of today, justification in sin rather then freedom from sin.

In essense, these false teachers who say repentance is not necessary in order to be saved and forgiven are teaching that a sinner doesn't need to be born again to see the Kingdom of God. A sinner who repents and believes is born again, a sinner who does not repent and believe is not born again. Those who live in sin and die in sin will most assuredly perish on judgment day. They must surrender their life to Jesus Christ.

 2007/7/23 0:53
roman
Member



Joined: 2005/4/18
Posts: 41


 Re:

Quote:
Are you in Christ? Is Christ in you? Then you are as holy as Christ.



Are you saying that a man who just got born again is already perfect just because he in Christ? For me, it is like saying that I enrolled in a martial art class & on the first day I attended, I became a “black belter.”


Quote:
You are "seated in the heavenlys with Christ".



To sit with Christ is to reign with Him. What does a man, who got born again, knows about reigning in the kingdom of God?

What’s the point? Perfection comes through a process as much as there are babies’ in Christ there are also fathers’ in Christ. The fathers’ in Christ did not come to that level on the very day they got born again.

If we are already perfect, there should not be any purging anymore particularly when we come to the judgment seat of Christ (see passage below).

1 Corinthians 3:13-15 (KJV)
Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


In one of Ravenhill’s sermon, he was asked by God “At the end of each day, can I sign my name in your life & say you are my workmanship?”

With the same question ask yourself.

To be His workmanship on a daily basis is to be able to accomplish the good works He laid before us on that particular day.

Ephesians 2:10 (KJV) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


Are you already perfect? Test yourself against the passage below:

James 3:2 (KJV) For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.


[b]"PERFECTION OF THE TONGUE"[/b]

 2007/7/23 2:59Profile









 Re:

After I was converted I had a new heart, a pure heart, so that I was born again.

And none but the pure in heart shall see God.

It is with the heart that we must believe unto righteousness. No type of moral perfection is required of us (at threat of eternal hell) other then purity of heart - which is genuine love for God and neighbor.

And love fullfills the law. Love for God does not sin against God. And love for neighbor does not sin against neighbor. Love even loves enemies.

The new birth is a heart of love. And Christian perfection is a heart of love, for love fullfills the law.

 2007/7/23 3:18
rowdy2
Member



Joined: 2007/1/21
Posts: 528
Southern USA

 Re: Christian Perfection

What is Christian perfection?
Answer, doing the will of God

What is the will of God
Walking in the spirit of love and charity in the kingdom of God.

Are Christians called to do works
Yes, in the works that proceed from the spirit of love and charity that we were ordained to do before the beginning of time.

Are the lost called to do works
Yes, works of repentance

Are Christians under the Law?
No, we are under Grace

Are the lost under the law.
Yes, the law teaches how righteous their Creator is and how sinful and lost they are and leads them to repent and seek the kingdom of God and perfection.

Eddie


_________________
Eddie

 2007/7/23 21:21Profile









 Re:

Quote:
And none but the pure in heart shall see God.

It is with the heart that we must believe unto righteousness. No type of moral perfection is required of us (at threat of eternal hell) other then purity of heart - which is genuine love for God and neighbor.

And love fullfills the law. Love for God does not sin against God. And love for neighbor does not sin against neighbor. Love even loves enemies.

The new birth is a heart of love.

And Christian perfection is a heart of love, for love fullfills the law.




Sorry couldn't resist this Gem.

:-D

"But could it be just this ?" , they'll scream.


Jesse, I am a nobody ... but I don't care if hell freezes over because I'm posting this right now .... but I am so awfully proud of you right now I could just about pop outta this shell.

How could it be that it was this simple all of the time - all along and yet GOD had to write such a LARGE book of does and don'ts in both the O.T. and the N.T. ? .... because we're Lame Brains and stupid and think we can muster up some sorta human love for God and man, when HE said, "Apart from ME, you can do NOTHING." ... Not even have Agape.

We can possess some sort of conditional human mess we call love, but Agape is an act of the Will, it is unconditional and also without dissimulation. We don't pick who we'll love, but this love does not come out the same to all.

Jesus walked in the Spirit and sometimes HE used harsh words but to others, HE was as gentle as a dove.

Those who HE was hard on, were the religious-puffed up toads that saw their own righteousness that NEVER can AgapeLove.

It is Impossible to be self-righteous and Agape at the same time.

It is impossible to Agape and live for SELF.

"Others-Always-Only" was HIS way of life and the ONLY way to die to self is through this type AGAPE.

Agape is "others-always-only" and what will get us "through unto the end".
It also "casts out all fear" and is "jealous for HIS GLORY ONLY" and cares nothing about one's OWN reputation, (only as Paul defended himself) but will play the fool so others will not be hurt and whatever the cost to self or self's reputation, will throw oneself in front of a train/or human, to protect those coming up behind or after us.
To be perfect is to be like Him, but only through the eyes that "HE" gives us with no trust in self.


Whatever the cost to self ------------------


Bless GOD and GOD Bless you Jesse. You've come a long way brother.

Pray we all will in His AgapeLove.

:-D

Thank you!

 2007/7/23 22:01









 Re:

Quote:
And none but the pure in heart shall see God.

It is with the heart that we must believe unto righteousness. No type of moral perfection is required of us (at threat of eternal hell) other then purity of heart - which is genuine love for God and neighbor.

And love fullfills the law. Love for God does not sin against God. And love for neighbor does not sin against neighbor. Love even loves enemies.

The new birth is a heart of love.

And Christian perfection is a heart of love, for love fullfills the law.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Sorry couldn't resist this Gem.


"But could it be just this ?" , they'll scream.


Jesse, I am a nobody ... but I don't care if hell freezes over because I'm posting this right now .... but I am so awfully proud of you right now I could just about pop outta this shell.

How could it be that it was this simple all of the time



Amen!

What God requires is very simple - love.

Holiness or purity is very simple - love.

Love fullfills the law. Christian perfection is simply love. We are called to love God and love everyone.

Sin is selfishness, but righteousness is love.

What is the type of Universe God wants? What was in God's mind at creation? I believe God wanted a Universe full of free moral agents, who all voluntarily choose to love one another. God wanted a people who would, of their own freewill without being forced, choose to love Him and each other.

Yes! Love! Inward, internal, from the heart, love. That is true Christian perfection!

A new heart, a pure heart, a perfect heart, is simply loving God and neighbor.

I think that the best writings on this is Charles Finneys Systematic theology. The essence of all that God requires is love. We need a [b]Theology of Love[/b]

Quote:
GOD Bless you Jesse. You've come a long way brother



Thank you much! I see more then ever the necessity of preaching God's love for all of His creation, for God's desire that everyone be saved, that God loved the ENTIRE WORLD that He gave His Son for everyone.

 2007/7/24 5:41
mjkeller
Member



Joined: 2006/8/8
Posts: 2


 Re: Christian Perfection

I kinda skimmed over many of the posts in this forum but I think I got the basic gist of the topic. Forgive me if I'm repeating what's already been said but have you considered Philipians 3?

"12Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.
15All of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you. 16Only let us live up to what we have already attained."

It seems to me that Christian perfection is all about our direction.


_________________
Mike Keller

 2007/7/24 7:52Profile
Nile
Member



Joined: 2007/3/28
Posts: 403
Raleigh, NC

 Re:

mjkeller, thanks for your post! What a great scripture!

Let me tell what I believe Paul is talking about. Lets look at the previous verses:

[i]7 But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ. 8 Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; 10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, 11 if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.[/i]

Notice verse 10 and 11. The very next verse says:

[i]12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me.[/i]

Now what is Paul talking about? The answer is in verse 10/11:

[i]10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, 11 if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.[/i]

Question: Has Paul at this point attained to the Resurrection from the dead?

No, indeed not. He is not perfected yet in that he is not fully conformed to Christ yet. If he holds steadfast, if he "presses on", he will be perfectly conformed to Christ at the resurrection.

Quote:
It seems to me that Christian perfection is all about our direction.



It is indeed about direction - the direction is conformity to Christ. But you must first be holy and free from sin before you can start moving at all. As long you have sin remaining in you you are moving away from God.

You might respond, "How can you move if you are already perfectly holy? If you have no sin to overcome, what else is left?"

To which I respond:

Luke 2:52
And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men.

If Jesus could grow and increase His whole life while all the while being perfectly holy, we can do the same. Indeed, we must.

Here are some scriptures to chew on:

Hebrews 10:26-27
For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.

Consider: What sin is not willful?

1 John 2:3-6
Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

Consider: Do you walk as He walked?

1 John 3:6-9
Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him. Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

Consider: If a professed Christian sins everyday, what can we conclude based on this passage?

With love,
Nile


_________________
Matthew Miskiewicz

 2007/7/24 9:03Profile
HopePurifies
Member



Joined: 2007/4/12
Posts: 181
Georgia, USA

 Re:

Ha, Nile beat me to it.
But I must say, if it is the resurrection from the dead, why does it continue to say this?

15 Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you. 16 Nevertheless, to the degree that we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule,[b] let us be of the same mind.

Edit: Oh nevermind! He means everything leading up to the resurrection of the dead and he's saying that if you think you're good in an area and you're not God will tell you.


_________________
Melanie

 2007/7/24 9:11Profile
Nile
Member



Joined: 2007/3/28
Posts: 403
Raleigh, NC

 Re:

Quote:

HopePurifies wrote:
Ha, Nile beat me to it.
But I must say, if it is the resurrection from the dead, why does it continue to say this?

15 Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you. 16 Nevertheless, to the degree that we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule,[b] let us be of the same mind.

Edit: Oh nevermind! He means everything leading up to the resurrection of the dead and he's saying that if you think you're good in an area and you're not God will tell you.



Right. I think Paul is referring to the fact that we are all pressing on towards the perfection that is only obtained in Jesus Christ at the resurrection. We are also at different levels of maturity, wisdom, and statue.


_________________
Matthew Miskiewicz

 2007/7/24 9:48Profile





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