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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Is Unbelief & Faith a Choice?

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 Re:

Quote:
by Katy-did on 2007/7/24 16:26:26

Hi GrannyAnnie,

I don't believe Jesus meant LITERALLY satan is anyone's father. After all, satan would have to have given birth and created man to begin with to be their father. Angels are not anyone's FATHER. So we must keep that idea in the context of what Jesus meant..and not literally.

Love in Christ
Katy-did




Just quoted Jesus Katy, didn't quote some wacky "demon-seed" heretic. Ha.


Thanks !


Back to you Jesse .... His Love.

 2007/7/24 17:46









 Re:

Quote:
Just quoted Jesus Katy, didn't quote some wacky "demon-seed" heretic. Ha.



GrannyAnnie, You'd be surprised how many professing christians actually believe in the "demon seed" theory. Shocking actually!!!!



Phillip said:

Quote:
It is true man cannot choose God, because of his unregenerate heart. Christ in a person is the only regeneration that changes that capacity to be able to believe God instead of Satan. How can man choose to believe what he has no capacity to believe? The only way is by the Will of the Father.




HERE IS THE WILL OF THE FATHER!!!! No one is regenerated (saved) first to be able to believe. There is no scripture that teaches that. Refer to Cornelius...he was saved...regenerated AFTER hearing the Gospel...it was AFTER he heard that he believed and then received the gift of the Holy Spirit.. not before.

Is unbelief a choice? Before we can know that, should we put all to the test in God's way!
Here goes...


Who has blinded who’s eyes here? Seems to me Satan has blinded their eyes? Correct? So in some scriptures Satan does the blinding and in others, God does the blinding? Correct? But here in these verses, what opens a man’s eyes?


2 Corinthians 4:
3But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
5For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.


WHO /WHAT AGAIN OPENS BLIND EYES?

2 Corinthians 3:

12Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
13And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
14But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
17Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.


Here is the best one of all…….

Acts 26:17-19
17Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
18To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.


*****19Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:



Let US not be disobedient to that Heavenly vision either...

Proverbs 11:30
The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that winneth souls is wise.

Added Edited

Phillip quotes:

Quote:
Adam chose who he would believe and Satan became his spiritual earthly father. Adam had no nature in being created by God, he chose his nature when he believed Satan over God. Then being spiritually dead to God he had no ability to believe God.



Again Phillip Quotes:

Quote:
It is true man cannot choose God, because of his unregenerate heart. Christ in a person is the only regeneration that changes that capacity to be able to believe God instead of Satan.



What about OT Saints, who looked forward to the Cross? THEY were not regenerated first to have faith, for regeneration(being Born Again) came with the RISEN Christ.

Phillip, can you find scripture to back up your theory?

Because.... the Bible says otherwise.

Job 2:3
And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

Zechariah 3:1
And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?


Love in Christ
Katy-did

 2007/7/25 5:27









 Re:

Quote:
Phillip, can you find scripture to back up your theory?



That is precisely the question!

I have never seen any scripture that says regeneration comes before conversion, that regeneration is when a sinner gets the ability, or freewill, so that He can then - aftering being regenerated - be converted.

There is no scriptural justification for dividing regeneration from conversion. Regeneration is the new birth. And the new birth is when a sinner repents and believes.

I don't see the scriptures saying that 1. A sinner is regenerated. Then 2. A sinner is converted.

The scriptures, to me, seems to be saying that if a sinner repents and believes that = regeneration/conversion/the new birth. A sinner is regenerated or born again WHEN they repent, not before they repent.

I know that Piper says that a man needs to be born again first and then after that he can turn from his sin in order to be saved. To Piper, being born again is when God gives you the ability to turn from sin, and then you get saved when you turn from sin. But I believe a sinner needs to turn from his sin first, and then he can be called born again. No where does the scriptures say that a born again man is still in sin, or that being born again is getting the ability to repent. Rather a man is born again when they repent.

All moral agents already have a freewill. Regeneration or the new birth is not when a sinner gets the ability to repent. But regeneration/the new birth is WHEN a sinner repents.

 2007/7/26 0:01
reformer
Member



Joined: 2007/6/25
Posts: 764


 Re:

I believe that God does it all, He hardens and He draws. God has elected those to be saved and hardened those not to be saved. Knowing who I am, the kind of person I was, it was no faith I had, it is not natural for a person to put their faith in GOd. I am vile and unclean, why would I need God or realize I need Him. Unless He chose me and drew me unto himself. Praise God for that!!

 2007/7/28 12:17Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
reformer wrote:
Knowing who I am, the kind of person I was, it was no faith I had, it is not natural for a person to put their faith in GOd. I am vile and unclean, why would I need God or realize I need Him.

Because you were convicted of the truth.

Just as Walid Shoebat, an ex Muslum terrorist who, in 1993, studied the Tanach (Jewish Bible; evidence) in a challenge to convert his wife to Islam. Six months later, after intense study, Walid realized that everything he had been taught about Jews was a lie. Persuaded he was on the side of evil by the evidence of the Tanach, he became an advocate for his former enemy by becomming a Christian.

Just as Nirmal from the "Send" magazine of Gosple for Asia, by the truth of evidence in the answered prayer when he prayed to Jesus. Because, when the prayers to other gods did not save him.
He acknowleged the Truth that only Jesus will save.

They both came to faith, while in there sins, by seeing the truth(revelation of Christ) by contrast of the lie that they were in.

 2007/7/28 13:17Profile
JelloTaster
Member



Joined: 2006/11/6
Posts: 44
Winnipeg MB

 Re:

We were actually discussing this a bit last night and came upon some verses that were a bit of a surprise to me.

Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Eze 33:12 Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth.
Eze 33:13 When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.
Eze 33:14 Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right;
Eze 33:15 If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die.
Eze 33:16 None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live.

2Ch 12:13 So king Rehoboam strengthened himself in Jerusalem, and reigned: for Rehoboam was one and forty years old when he began to reign, and he reigned seventeen years in Jerusalem, the city which the LORD had chosen out of all the tribes of Israel, to put his name there. And his mother's name was Naamah an Ammonitess.
2Ch 12:14 And he did evil, because he prepared not his heart to seek the LORD.

Heb 12:16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
Heb 12:17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

I believe in free will. However I do realize that there is scripural evidence (such as Heb 12:16,17) for election. Anyway, just thought I'd share these verses. Chris


_________________
Chris Wiebe

 2007/7/28 15:28Profile









 Re:

Whosoever Will:

Numbers 21:5-9

5And the people spake against God, and against Moses, Wherefore have ye brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? for there is no bread, neither is there any water; and our soul loatheth this light bread.
6And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.
7Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people.
8And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.
9And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.


[b]John 3:14-15

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up, that WHOSOEVER believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.[/b]

*Forgivness of sin* has to do with Jesus Christ, Promised in Genesis 3:15, a redeemer to save us from sin and death.

Faith has been around from the beginning of Genesis. Hebrews 11***

Love in Christ
Katy-did ;-)

 2007/7/29 11:00





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