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philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re: Matthew 20?

Quote:
WHat's with this passage? First Jesus tells us that all will be treated equally in Heaven, no matter at what point in our lives we become saved. (What really confuses me about this passage is that it implies that people saved in heaven grumble! about anything) Next when the two mothers ask Jesus for their sons to sit at the right and left hand of Jesus in heaven, He tells them that the station of people in heaven will be decided by God the Father alone. But this contradicts the earlier passage that implies that everyone's station in heaven will be the same. I don't get it.



Jake
I know you don't get it Jake. This is because your whole attitude to the book is in error. You constantly set yourself in position as its judge rather than humbly submitting to its examination of your own life. People nearly always find what they are looking for in scripture. You are looking for evidence that will allow you to ignore its plain teaching. You will find it without too much difficulty. The reason you don't like this parable is because it is 'you' it is talking about.

You frequently accuse folks in this forum of being literalists, and yet you seem to have no understanding at all of the nature and purpose of a parable. A parable has one main purpose in life; the other details flesh out the story. Frequently the parables of Jesus were known stories which his hearers knew well. The purpose of this particular parable is to demonstrate the single stunning truth that God is not fair!

I know that this is a concept that you have continuing difficulty with, but God does not deal with us according to our desserts. He deals with us according to grace. We are not saved by the amount of time or energy we put into God's work, but by His acceptance of us on His own terms. This concept is always offensive to work-based schemes of salvation which is effectively what your own version of reincarnation is. It was also offensive to the the Judaism of Christ (and Paul's time) which had become achievement orientated.

The comment on 'grumblers' was not aimed at people in heaven but groups on earth who thought (or in your case, think) that their acceptance with God is linked in some way to their contributions or achievement. Salvation by grace, through faith, is never proportional nor based on some kind of ratio.

Every religious system which has ever existed is based on the notion that I can deserve something by behaving differently. Biblical Christianity alone is based on the revelation captured by Augustus Toplady...

'nothing in my hand I bring
simply to Thy cross I cling'


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Ron Bailey

 2004/4/28 6:31Profile









 Re:

34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

This seems clear to me.


Ron (Philologos) I think you misunderstand what I believe.

Quakers believe that there is "that of God" in everyone and that we are to walk the earth cheerfully seeking out and speaking to "that of God" in others. This belief system fits with the passage above very well.

I believe in reincarnation not because of anything in the Bible, or anything to do with Quakerism. I have had my own experience as a young child with very clear visions of a past life in India. THere are numerous examples of young children telling of past lives where the details were very accurate. Impossibly so.

My faith is not shaken by seeming contraditions between the bible and science or real life experiences. I see the bible as a spiritual guide which explains the why of life, but not necessarily the how. Thus, evolution doesn't upset my faith. Reincarnation doesn't either. Neither reflect upon the love of Christ and the salvation that comes through belief in Him as the Son of God and ransom for our sins.

Jake

 2004/4/28 11:27
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 Re:

Quote:
Quakers believe that there is "that of God" in everyone and that we are to walk the earth cheerfully seeking out and speaking to "that of God" in others. This belief system fits with the passage above very well.


Jake, I must agree with what Ron (philogos) said! The way you are using these discussion boards is not edifying to others that are in Jesus Christ and I have (along with others) have been praying for God to open your eyes of understanding. It seems to me that since you have come and posted 300 messages you have NOT taken any of the wisdom from above that was offered to you through peoples responses. You in most cases have simply denyed the truth and stated your own beliefs which you see at truth but are really lies.

You also claim to Quakerism but have not the first idea what truley quakers are. The modern Quaker movement is quite far from the truth that the light within leads you to. I personally have been sitting (figurativly) at the feet of George Fox as I have been reading through his journals, epsitles, doctrinal books, etc. The spirit that George Fox spoke in is NOT the spirit that is in the current movement of the quakers in most places.

By arguing and debating one does not come into the kingdom of God but by divine revelation of the truth of God, namely Christ Jesus.

"That which I was moved to declare was this: that...as the Spirit of God was in them that gave forth the Scriptures, so the same Spirit of God must be in them that come to understand the Scriptures...and without this Spirit they can know neither God nor Christ, nor the Scriptures, nor have right fellowship with one another."
-George Fox


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2004/4/28 13:36Profile









 Re:

Greg,

I appreciate your reply yet must ask, have you attended silent Quaker worship for any length of time in order to appreciate the depth of the spirit revealed there? If not, how can you be a judge of what the liberal Quaker movement is. Yes, there are a range of testimonies that I find questionable. (There are people who speak out their own thoughts and are not patient enough to "wait upon the Lord." One woman recently stated that John 3:16 was "sexist.") But these are discernable and if they were not allowed, there would be interference in the worship process and this would block Righteous testimony from Christ. Meeting for worship is an open place for Seekers of Spritual Truth, and thus of course some chaff gets in with the wheat. God sorts it out for those who listen for and know Him.

I am confident in my faith, but it seems you and Ron are not. Do I hear "Grumbling"?
:-)

Jake

 2004/4/28 13:59
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Joined: 2002/12/11
Posts: 37186
"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11

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 Re:

Jake, for lack of better words thats digusting! I would deem that on the level of when a holy puritan man came into a quaker meeting once to witness 2 black ravens fly in a window and land on two peoples heads in the meeting house. The heads that the black ravens landed on vomited violently. The righteous puritan man left in reverent fear that God would judge that meeting house. Surely the spirit of God was not present but people were opening their hearts and minds to unseen influnces.

If there is meeting house where such plain words of the antichrist can be spoken without righteous judgement on it then surely the spirit of Christ IS NOT present, even though you would want to affirm that it is.

"There is no salvation by any other name under the whole heaven but the name of Jesus … They which have been dead in sin and transgression he makes them to sit together in heavenly places … and … come to be gathered in the name of Jesus. So, gathered in the name of Jesus we have salvation of life and redeemer[ship] and mediatorship and peace with God is known [and] he is in the midst of them. For … Christ saith "Where two or three are gathered in my name I am in the midst of them". Then [if Christ be in the midst] there is righteousness in the midst, life in the midst … light and truth and a saviour and redeemer in the midst to you that be gathered in his name and refresh you. And so he is the head and they are the church and then the head is in the midst of the church ordering the body and ordering the church and ordering his faithful ones and saints."
-George Fox


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2004/4/28 14:23Profile
JKail
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Joined: 2004/2/29
Posts: 34


 Re:

Jake,
Maybe this is outside of the topic here, but I cannot help but ask this question: what sermons do you listen to on this website? Every person preaching on this site preaches with the authority of the Word of God, which you claim is full of error.

It seems like every post you make is trying to undermine the authority of Scripture. Are you truly seeking answers to these questions or meerly trying to cause controversy with your posts? If you don't believe in the authority of Scripture than there is no sense posting all of your comments because you are coming from a completely different view than everyone else on this site.

Let me assure you, you would be much better off standing upon the Word of God whether you can wrap your mind around it all or not. Who are you to question Almighty God?

-Jake Kail


_________________
Jake Kail

 2004/4/28 14:48Profile









 Re:

Greg,

Rest assured that people who voice such ignorant things in meeting are rebuked by God speaking through others. The woman's testimony (not the right word for it) was followed by further testimony that clearly contradicted her and was also clearly righteous and of God. SO the contrast was clear to all and was learning moment for the congregation. I used it as an example of people who do not know God but whom are seeking.

God did speak to her in the end and I pray that she heard it.

Jake

 2004/4/28 15:13









 Re:


J Kail,

The Bible is not "full of error" it is full of truth. But it is not all of it literal truth. I am not questioning Almight God. I am interpreting scriptures in a different manner than you do. I am not trying to undermine the authority of Scripture, either. It has great authority for me.

But I understand how it has been handed down through the ages, translated through several languages by many and that it has been argued over by those who did so as to what belongs and what not and how to interpret the meanings of various words. And I understand human nature in the manner of these things and know they mistranslate, make errors. Yet, the Truth comes through anyhow, which is a testimony to the strength of God's true word.

On a personal note, I have enjoyed very much and learned alot from the contributions and writings of members of this forum. especially recently Oilpainter and MoreofHim. (thanks)

But I guess it is time for me to cease posting and discussing here as it only upsets people.

Jake

 2004/4/28 15:57
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Jake wrote

Quote:
I am confident in my faith, but it seems you and Ron are not. Do I hear "Grumbling"?

Hi Jake,
Not from this corner of the world you don't. Do you mean I am not confident in your faith? That would be accurate but has never provoked 'grumbling' here although I have not been beyond a little 'groaning'.

As you say 'you don't get it'. I know you don't and I don't blame you for that. But you are required to take heed of the words of Jesus who said 'have you not read...'. God has trusted into our hands an extraordinary book. It is a comprehensive relevation of His will inspired over millennia and through dozens of individuals. Its inspiring Spirit has been recognized by men and women for hundreds of years. There are two main principles of interpretation; those who subject it to their rational processes, and those who subject their rational processes to it. When the stony heart turns the stony ears will soon become sensitive.

In all your posts this has been the underlying issue. The specific details have varied but always the underlying theme has been 'has God said?' You will recognize the quote from Gen 2:1; it is the first recorded instance of an attempt to undermine the Biblical revelation. My purpose over all these months has been to restate the classical Christian answer of 'yes'. And what God has said can be relied on rationally, and must be relied on personally.

You have my email. If you genuinely want to continue any of our conversations outside the arena, please do.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2004/4/29 4:53Profile





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