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tjservant
Member



Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 Re:

This is not in reply to anyone in particular.

In some threads someone will bring up what somebody said in one of their past threads, and draw from it what position they think they must hold because of that statement. I ask many questions on many subjects for many reasons, because of this I ask you… please do not cast me into any certain group, lot, or camp regarding this or any other topic…I am just tossing things out there to see what the Saints have to say.


_________________
TJ

 2007/7/20 14:13Profile
FireinmyBones1
Member



Joined: 2004/1/17
Posts: 219
Michigan

 Re:

PM,
I wanted to apologize if my last reply to you came off defensive or accusatory...I'm sorry. I do not want to sound harsh or arguementative.
Personally I have never seen any good fruit come from this particular teaching that God hates the sinner. Jesus told us that we would know a prophet by his fruit . . . since a prophet and his message are one we can assume he was speaking of the fruit of his message. I have personally seen no good fruit come from this teaching. Perhaps you have...

To me it seems that the WHOLE of scripture is opposed to such a thought, especially in NT theology. Take for instance Romans 5:6-10:

6 For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die.
8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.
10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Look especially close at the point being made in verses 7 and 8 - it says in verse seven that it is rare that someone would give their life for a righteous man and maybe, just maybe someone would give their life for a good man. Then Paul drops the bomb in verse 8 - but God demonstrated His LOVE FOR US IN THIS - while we WERE STILL SINNERS Christ died for us! There was obviosly a love for the sinner for that is what compelled the Father to send the Son to die for us. Furthermore, this is the heartbeat of John 3:16, for God so LOVED the WORLD . . . The world is clearly speaking of the pagan and ungodly, not just the rightoues law keeper.
The whole book of Hosea also illustrates this point very well. All through the history of Israel's prostitution God pursued her with a fiery heart of love. Though He judged her and wounded her, His heart was still aflame with love for her.
Just my thoughts...
God Bless!
Jeff

God Bless you my friend.
Jeff


_________________
Jeff

 2007/7/20 14:20Profile









 Re:

Fireinmybones,

Quote:
There was obviosly a love for the sinner for that is what compelled the Father to send the Son to die for us.



God set his love upon sinners to save them from the foundation of the earth. Those God foreknew or foreloved, he predestined, called, justified, and glorifed (Rm 8:29-30). God knew who He would redeem and in His eyes they were already glorified (in fellowship with Him forever in heaven) check it out its in past tense. God's love was on those who were already conformed into Christ likeness as children.
Therefore God's holy hatred abids on those who rebel aganist all that He stands for and His kingdom. Most importantly: GOD ONLY SAVED US FOR HIS OWN GLORY, not out of his love for us, it was for His own Name's sake.

 2007/7/20 14:40
tjservant
Member



Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 Re:

I believe this whole “hate theology” seems so absurd to some because they are seeing it has one…LOVE…or the other…HATE. But the few I have spoken with that do subscribe to this hate theology do not think God does not love all sinners. They quote all the same scriptures that everyone else does for the love of God being for all.

But they believe He can hate and is capable of hate at the same time he can love. They chalk it up to Him being “God” and that there are things we do not understand. They never say God did not love even while we were yet sinners.

I would seem to me that they are okay with not understanding everything, such as God being able to hate and love at the same time.

I have heard this preached…cannot remember who or where.

Is this possible?


_________________
TJ

 2007/7/20 14:42Profile









 Re:

8-) Love. Hate theology to me is worthless.

 2007/7/20 14:44
FireinmyBones1
Member



Joined: 2004/1/17
Posts: 219
Michigan

 Re:

PM,
I appreciate your heart and desire for the truth. I must be honest though, I cannot reconcile your position with scripture - perhaps I am wrong, for I do not presume to know everything. However, even the very statement I am replying to contradicts Romans 5 -. You cannot slice up humanity into the elect and the damned and then interpret all scripture through that lens. That was not the light Paul was writing in so interpreting through that lens causes the scriptures to contradict one another.
jeff


_________________
Jeff

 2007/7/20 14:47Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Furthermore, this is the heartbeat of John 3:16, for God so LOVED the WORLD . . .



I heard it said that [i]trust is the fruit of knowing you are loved[/i]. Imagine telling someone that God [u]hates[/u] them and then telling them they must trust Him to be saved. We don't trust folk we know hate us, do we? Why? Because we know they will take advantage of an occasion to do us evil if given the opportunity.

I also think it is important to understand that the Hebrew word underneath 'hate' in Psalm 5:5 can also be translates as 'enemy'. Certainly we were all enemies of God in our mind by wicked works. And in this sense Psalm 5:5 is not in contradiction to what is revealed throughout the scriptures.

I think it is dangerous and false to present God in a way to folk that comes off as a pagan god in need of immediate placation. God is not in Heaven about to snap-off or something on some folk. God is a God that loves His creation created in His own image. A women may forget to love her own child but God will not forget to love humanity. His love is described as "the great love wherewith He loved us that even while we were dead in sin Christ died for the ungodly."

Mash mouth evangilism is no more effective than a mamby pamby easy believism. It is the goodness of God that leadeth men to repentance. Some people view God as such a tyrant that they will not approach.

I'm having a 'selah' moment here so bear with me. There is something wrong with us when we would prefer to drive people to God with fearful sayings and all manor of ferocity. As if God would be more pleased if someone came to Him in terror for their life scared that He was going to thrust them into everlasting torments in the next moment- [i]rather than[/i] them coming to God, led by the Holy Ghost, in true godly sorrow, in the light of His goodness and love. Almost as if we get the impression that a rabid parent who beats their child into obedience is to be preferred to one that would teach their child understanding in an atmosphere of love.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2007/7/20 14:47Profile









 Re:

Youse guys are great.

PM4, why would you join on here suddenly and right off the bat, start arguing, from the Intro Section since ?

If I capitalize somethings, it's not because I'm yelling ... it's just emphasis here.


These are good people here and 'our' MAIN GOAL is [b]LOVE[/b] because that is [b]the move of GOD in our midst[/b].


Without [b]LOVE[/b] we will NEVER-EVER SEE REVIVAL or God.

He really only gave us the two Commandments to Love Him and others .... That's all He left us with .... that's all we have to "fulfill all the law and the prophets." That's all we have to please Him and without it, we won't be "Perfected".
1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: [u]hereby[/u] know we that we are in him.
Joh 14:21 He that hath My commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth Me: and he that loveth Me shall be loved of My Father, and [u]I will love him, and will 'manifest' Myself to him[/u].
1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

As in the book of Acts, they were "all of one mind" and cared for each other, having heard Jesus' commandments to love God & one another .....

THAT'S WHAT BROUGHT THE FIRE DOWN .... nothing more, nothing LESS.


Please see that you have joined a 'very hungry for God' group of people here and folks who want to focus on the goodness and love of God so that they can witness such to the world.

I've debated a Ministry that's also on the Net that teaches God's Hate and I can tell you that that opinion and their ministry has destroyed the lives of many.

Satan loves HATE. Fallen nature is IMMEDIATELY drawn to HATE FIRST.

WE are those who are to manifest GOD'S LOVE.

We are the only humans on earth who possess it .... if we "want to".

Please reconsider why you have joined this forum of God loving/seeking folks and maybe just admit, that you need to grow in His love like all the rest of us do.

"Love one another" ~ "By THIS shall all men know you are My disciples"

[b]Eph 3:14~21 For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, of whom every family in Heaven and on earth is named, that He may give you, according to the riches of His glory, by His power to become mighty in the inward man through His Spirit, that through faith Christ may dwell in your hearts, having been rooted and founded in love, that you may be given strength to grasp, with all the saints, what is the breadth and length and depth and height, and to know the surpassing knowledge and love of Christ, [u]that you may be filled to All the Fullness of God.[/u]
Now to Him being able to do exceedingly above all that we ask or think, according to the power working in us, to Him be the glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus, to all the generations of the age of the ages. Amen.[/b]


Thank you.
annie

 2007/7/20 14:49









 Re:

Quote:
I would seem to me that they are okay with not understanding everything, such as God being able to hate and love at the same time.



"God must hate because He is love. I love children therefore I must hate abortion"
-Paul Washer

God is Love and Holiness, therefore he must hate all that is evil. He cannot have fellowship with that which is evil because it would go aganist His very character. You mind is limited/finite so don't limit God to what he can or can not do (as long as it doesn't contridict His revealed character). Otherwise you are committing idolatry

 2007/7/20 14:53









 Re:

Good quote by Paul Washer.... it seems we are at odds because some are saying God loves babies and some are saying God hates abortion, yet they are very reconcilable truths.

in Christ - Jim

 2007/7/20 14:56





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