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 God hate sinners as well as sin?

Modern evangelism proudly proclaims, 'God loves all, He hates the sin not the sinner'. How then do you explain Ps. 5:5 "The boastful will not stand before your eyes; YOU HATE ALL EVILDOERS"

 2007/7/19 15:02









 Re: God hate sinners as well as sin?

[url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=17854&forum=36&28]See this link[/url]

In Christ - Jim

 2007/7/19 15:10









 Re:

my friend do you understand that man is depraved and dead in their sins (eph 2) and he is unable to come to Christ apart from God raising him from the dead. Why do you think God saves men? do you think God owes any man salvation? If God let justice stand we'd all be in hell and God would still be Love.

 2007/7/19 15:21









 Re:

This is making me more and more sad.

The Link that Jim gave and this one now is causing me to see the "hate" that comes from this doctrine.

I may be in a Reformed Church, but I shall never ever recant that God so LOVED the WORLD and that He "is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance" ... which is an act of their will.

No wonder why there was so much Bloodshed when this doctrine became so powerful. No wonder why Calvin and his followers began a murderous spree.

I'm sorry, I love my brothers and sisters in Christ, but when "God IS Love" is removed from the Gospels, I cannot disagree too strongly.

God IS Love ~ the same, yesterday, today and Forever.

 2007/7/19 15:28
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

he is, but Gods "hate" should not be confused with our for the most of the time sinful hate. When God hates something its not when i hate something. Gods hate is Holy and Good. I belive God hates the sinner, but at the same time he loves him so much he sent his only begotten son to be slaughtered on a tree.

Do i get how it all fits together? no not right now :-)

God loves us even more then we can imagine or ever understand, i dont see how HIS hatred should be any different, just as much as we can understand the depth of His love, we cant understand His hate towards Sin and sinners.

the reason i dont like the frase "God loves the sinner but not his sin" is becuse it is the sinner who goes forever to hell. Not the "sin"

but the good news is today is the day of salvation so if any man come, he will not experience this eternal wrath of gods holy anger.

Bwcuse Jesus took it on ! now thats Love!

Glory....

[url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=8309]The wrath of God[/url]


_________________
CHRISTIAN

 2007/7/19 15:41Profile









 Re:

Hi dear brother Christian,

The only way this "hate" can be explained is that GOD DOES Love the whole world, [u]but they are not able to "Benefit" from His Love[/u] because they won't Love Him but love darkness rather than the Light.

It is the same as when Jesus commands that we "hate" our wives, mothers, fathers, brothers, etc..

Of course He didn't mean "hate" them, He would never contradict His Own Words everywhere else in Scripture.
But HE means "by comparison".

Where it says, "the disciple who Jesus loved", does that mean that Jesus loved John more than the rest ?

No, it means that John drew in the closest to Jesus and leaned on His breast at the last supper and why Jesus said, "Behold thy mother", giving Mary over to John's care, because John through experiential knowledge/revelation of Christ's Love "Knew" (as you "know" what that means) Jesus' Love best at that time and why he was given The Revelation.
It was John who said, "GOD 'is' Love."

A story goes that, towards the end of John's life when very old, he'd always say, "Love one another".

That is not hard to believe when you do a Search on how many times John wrote "Love" into his Gospel and Epistles and why God would give 'him' The Revelation.

Love is why HE birthed humankind and gave man such a beautiful planet, Etc.

The same reason why people make the decision to have children.

Do you hate those who go astray and just Love your children that obey you ?

Of course not, but those who don't obey you, are not in the position to benefit from your love for them.

That is what is meant by the very-very few verses that say that "God hates".


Love you brother.

 2007/7/19 15:58
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

maybe people just need to define what love is :-)


_________________
CHRISTIAN

 2007/7/19 16:08Profile









 Re: "Love"

Hia Christian. "People" Did define love between the covers of our Bible.

It's from cover to cover brother.

Can't read any part of The Book without having it "defined". :-)

Just look at Hosea for one.


If God is Love ~ Then that Agape Love is "GOD".
He 'is' the definition that was Incarnate and crucified - "GOD our Savior".

 2007/7/19 18:07









 Re:

Quote:
my friend do you understand that man is depraved and dead in their sins (eph 2) and he is unable to come to Christ apart from God raising him from the dead. Why do you think God saves men? do you think God owes any man salvation? If God let justice stand we'd all be in hell and God would still be Love.



Dude- I was just posteding a link to a similar recent thread... and yes I do understand the unmeritted favor and mercies of our Holy God :o)

In Christ - Jim

 2007/7/19 21:20
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Luke 14:26; If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.


The Greek word here for ‘hate’ is miseo and it carries a meaning that spans from the deepest “detestation” to a simple “loved less.”

How are [u]we[/u] supposed to love? How has God commanded us to love? Now, as a point of reference Jesus also told us to to love our enemies (Matthew 5:43). John the Revelator told us that a person who hates his brother is in darkness (I John 2:9) a murderer (v.11a) and we know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him (II John 2:11b). It would make no sense for our Lord to tell us to ‘detest’ our family and love our enemies. It would make no sense for God to command us to love someone He hates? Ever give that one a thought? Quite an indictment! That is akin to accusing God of telling us, "Don't do as I do- do as I tell you."


We see then that the [u]context[/u] determines whether our Lord means to “detest” or to “love less.” Two basic hermeneutical rules to always go by?

1) allow scripture to interpret scripture
2) a text without a context is a pretext.

Vines dictionary of New Testament Greek words gives us some insight into the full gamut of the meaning of ‘hate’. He also speaks specifically to its meaning in Luke 14:26. He writes that miseo is used to indicate a relative preference for one thing over another, by way of expressing either aversion from, or disregard for, the claims of one person or thing relatively to those of another.

In Matthew 6:24, and Luke 16:13 it demonstrates the impossibility of serving two masters. In Luke 14:26, as to the claims of parents relatively to those of Christ. In John 12:25 it speaks of disregard for one's life relatively to the claims of Christ. We can simplify this by comparing two passages:

He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. (Matthew 10:37)

If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. (Luke 14:26)

Notice Matthew 10:37 is saying essentially the same thing as Luke 14:26. In one passage we are told if we “love family more” we cannot be a disciple and in the other passage we are told if we don’t “love family less” we cannot be a disciple. This essentially means that you love everything less than Christ. It does not mean you ‘detest’ your family. And it certainly does not mean that God detests sinners and expects us to love them. An example of this is seen by comparing two more passages:

Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore? (Matthew 19:27)

‘Forsaken’ here is the Greek word afieemi and it essentially means “to let go” or to "let drop." It is translated as ‘forgive’ in some passages to indicate that the transgression was allowed ‘to drop.’ If we interpret the passage as thus it is seen how the next passage can be equally true without contradiction:

Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas? (I Corinthians 9:5)

did Peter forsake his wife? Then how was he leading her about? We see here that the same Peter (Cephas) had a wife that he ‘lead about.’ The Greek word for ‘lead about’ meant that he took her with him whereever he went. This is not forsaken in the sense of leaving behind, but is afieemi or ‘letting go’ in the sense that he did not consider her a possession to be grasped (Philippians 2:6). He lived his life as though he had no wife, etc. (I Corinthians 7:29). To have forsaken his family in the sense of abandonment would have meant he denied the faith and become worse than an infidel. (I Timothy 5:8) This is why young zealot Christians need to keep reading their bibles. They start making whole doctrines out of half-truths. Pretty soon people are supposed to hate their parents and God hates sinners. :-?

Moreover we are told to Honor our father and mother which is the first commandment with promise, that it may be well with thee and thou may live long upon the earth (Ephesians 5:29). If any curse his father or mother let them die the death. (Matthew 15:4; Mark 7:10)

Detesting the family also does not square with Paul telling the men to love their wives as Christ loved the Church. (Ephesians 5:25)

So what did our Lord mean in these passages on hating family? What can we understand when we read that God HATES? He meant that we must love them less than we love Him and if it comes down to following Him or them- we follow Him. Some things God does detest- but certainly we cannot apply this in a blanket way to all sinners. To "love less" is almost certainly in view.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2007/7/19 22:08Profile





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