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 Re:

You are right I was giving an answer to a different question I think than was ask. No moral government has nothing to do with santification. I did not read the article on what was being discussed. There is no atonement except the blood of Jesus Christ. The point I was trying to make was is there was 100 people strained on a deserted island and 50 were spirit filled christians and 50 were not and they started trying to set up a government by the people, of the people, and for the people, the christians would attempt to set laws and rules that was God honoring. Thanks for trying to clear this up.

 2007/7/19 21:37









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Jesus said to a blind man, "May it be done to you according to your faith." I have faith that Jesus can cleanse me from all sin.



Funny thing about the blind man is that he had no other resources. He was blind, and no one could make him see...not even himself. He was at a point of complete weakness. He did not know he had faith he just knew he was blind and that his only hope was Jesus.

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The point is not whether we can or cannot keep the law. Paul clearly makes the case in Romans 2 through 3 that "by the deeds of the law, shall no flesh be justified"

There is not a man on Earth that has every lived, that has ever been brought into a right relationship with God by his own obedience to God's Holy law. Not one, not ever. Even if you did keep the entire law (theoretically) then you still would not be justified before God because the fact is that God says His salvation comes to us by way of Grace, and not out of a debt that He owes us.

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4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.





But now....

The righteousness of God, apart from the law is manifested (revealed) being witnessed by the law and the prophets...Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ...upon all them that believe, for their is no difference.


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My brother, which point can I not keep? In which point does Jesus not set free me? In which point does the Holy Spirit not empower me?



Brother, what you will find as you continue to walk with God, is that He will allow you to fail. He will put you in circumstances and situations where your zeal and your passion will fail. He will put people in your life that you will not be able to love by your own strength.

You will have seasons where all you will see is your sin, and your cry will be "Lord if you should mark iniquity, who could stand" And this scripture will become precious to you:

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Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin



He might marry you off and teach you how to truly love someone. He might even give you children, and then you will know what it is like to try to:

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34Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.



And fail!

God's ways are not our ways. He must take us down to a death (that we have no control over) before we can be resurrected in His life. Yes the Holy Spirit will empower us to obey God...absolutely! But we will not avoid suffering before that happens, and much of that suffering is coming face to face with our own sin.

And all the while we remain Justified in His sight because of the righteousness of Christ.

 2007/7/19 22:30
Nile
Member



Joined: 2007/3/28
Posts: 403
Raleigh, NC

 Re:

Quote:
Funny thing about the blind man is that he had no other resources. He was blind, and no one could make him see...not even himself. He was at a point of complete weakness.



It seems to me like you're implying I am saying we can help ourselves. We cannot be free from sin apart from Jesus, who sets us free, "free indeed".

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He did not know he had faith he just knew he was blind and that his only hope was Jesus.



He did not know he had faith? Jesus asked him point blank, "Do you believe I can do this?"

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There is not a man on Earth that has every lived, that has ever been brought into a right relationship with God by his own obedience to God's Holy law. Not one, not ever. Even if you did keep the entire law (theoretically) then you still would not be justified before God because the fact is that God says His salvation comes to us by way of Grace, and not out of a debt that He owes us.



You are both wrong and right, depending on what you mean.

1. Men are not justified [i]because of their obedience[/i].
This is entirely true! No one on earth can be justified because of their works! Even though they may be righteous after coming to God, their righteousness will never be grounds for God to pardon their past sin. That only comes through Jesus.

2. Men are justified [i]on the condition of obedience[/i]. This is very Biblical. The whole idea of repentance revolves around obedience.

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Brother, what you will find as you continue to walk with God, is that He will allow you to fail.



This is not the God of the Bible.

Jude 24-25
[b]Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy[/b], to the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

1 Corinthians 10:13
There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: [b]but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.[/b]

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You will have seasons where all you will see is your sin, and your cry will be "Lord if you should mark iniquity, who could stand"



I saw my sin, I saw utter destitution, I saw my guilt, I saw my just punishment - and then I saw His love, I saw His offer of forgiveness, I saw God dying on a cross for me - and then I stopped sinning!

Also, if anyone could answer these questions, I would be greatly obliged:

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1. Which sin do I not need to repent of to be saved?
2. If sin every day, am I not living in sin?
3. If I commit the same sin every day, have I repented of it?


_________________
Matthew Miskiewicz

 2007/7/19 22:59Profile









 Re:

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Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy



I never said we would fall, in fact, He holds us in His hand the entire time. I said we would fail.

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This is not the God of the Bible



Keep reading.

 2007/7/19 23:07









 Re:

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Men are justified on the condition of obedience



Obedience to what? The law or the Gospel.

The Holy Spirit is given to them that obey what?

 2007/7/19 23:27









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Quote:
1. Men are not justified because of their obedience.
This is entirely true! No one on earth can be justified because of their works! Even though they may be righteous after coming to God, their righteousness will never be grounds for God to pardon their past sin. That only comes through Jesus.

2. Men are justified on the condition of obedience. This is very Biblical. The whole idea of repentance revolves around obedience.



AMEN!

[u][b]1.[/b][/u] Men are only justified upon [i]condition[/i] of [u]obedience to the gospel[/u], which requires repentance and faith.

Ro 6:17 - But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have [b]obeyed from the heart[/b] that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

Heb 5:9 - he became the author of [b]eternal salvation[/b] unto all them that [b]obey[/b] him.

Those who are disobedient to the gospel will be condemned, ie, those who do not turn from their sin and put their faith in Jesus Christ.

2Th 1:8 - In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that [b]obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:[/b]

1Pe 4:17 - For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that [b]obey not the gospel of God? [/b]

A man must [b]obey[/b] God's command to repent:

Acts 17:30: And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now [b]commandeth all men every where to repent[/b]

Luke 13:3 "Unless you [b]repent[/b], you shall all likewise perish"

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The Pharisees were some of the most moral people around,



????

[u][b]2.[/b][/u] The Pharisees were not righteous at all. They [i]"appeared"[/i] to be righteous unto men, but were not righteous at all, in anything. The Pharisees were total hypocrites, they were totally depraved without an iota of morality inside of them.

Matthew 23:25-28: Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the [b]outside[/b] of the cup and of the platter, but [b]within[/b] they are full of extortion and excess. Thou blind Pharisee, [b]cleanse first that which is within[/b] the cup and platter, that the [b]outside[/b] of them may be clean also. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed [b]appear[/b] beautiful [b]outward[/b], but are [b]within[/b] full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. Even so ye also [b]outwardly appear righteous unto men[/b], but [b]within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.[/b]

The Pharisees read their bibles, went to Church, could quote their othodox theology, but were totally lost because they only outwardly obeyed but did not inwardly obey.

They only outwardly appeared righteous but were not inwardly righteous, because what they did they did SELFISHLY, they fasted and prayed all for themselves, and they did not do it FOR GOD, they did not do it genuinely from the heart.

And that is the difference between the [b]RELIGIOUS[/b] and the [b]RIGHTEOUS[/b]. The religious outwardly obey, but the righteous inwardly obey. The religious are selfish, they do it all for themselves. The righteous are benevolent, they do it all for God.

1Jo 3:7 - Little children, let no man deceive you: he that [b]doeth righteousness is righteous[/b], even as he is righteous.

Mt 15:8 - This people draweth nigh unto me with their [b]mouth[/b], and honoureth me with their [b]lips[/b]; but their [b]heart[/b] is far from me

Ro 6:17 - But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have [b]obeyed from the heart[/b] that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

 2007/7/19 23:43









 Re:

I completely agree that a man is saved by obeying the Gospel. But, what is the Gospel?

If obeying the Gospel saves me, what is it that I am to obey.

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Quote:
And that is the difference between the RELIGIOUS and the RIGHTEOUS. The religious outwardly obey, but the righteous inwardly obey. The religious are selfish, they do it all for themselves. The righteous are benevolent, they do it all for God.



So I am made righteous by my inward obedience. What evidence do I have that I am obeying God from my heart? And if I do anything out of a selfish motive, am I then considered religious and no longer righteous?

 2007/7/20 0:34









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I completely agree that a man is saved by obeying the Gospel. But, what is the Gospel?

If obeying the Gospel saves me, what is it that I am to obey.



When Jesus called out to men, who became his disciples, the scripture says that they "forsook" what was with them, and "followed him".

And that is what I know obedience to the gospel is. It is when your forsake everything, abandoning sin and self (selfishness), and choosing to follow Christ. It is a complete and total yeilding up of yourself to Christ and His control.

To "obey the gospel" is to forsake all sin and self (selfishness), but not to merely externally forsake it, but internally from your heart; and to trust (put your faith in) in Jesus Christ, which is a faith (trust) that will follows Christ, because you trust Him and want to be with Him.

You fall in love with Jesus because of what He did for you on the cross, dying for our sin so that everyone can be forgiven, therefore you forsake everything and follow Him.

So to "obey the gospel" is to forsake everything (all sin, self, selfishness) and follow Christ. Not just follow after some external law, but to follow Christ from the heart.

 2007/7/20 0:57









 Re:

Thanks for your quick response.

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To "obey the gospel" is to forsake all sin and self (selfishness), but not to merely externally forsake it, but internally from your heart; and to trust (put your faith in) in Jesus Christ, which is a faith (trust) that will follows Christ, because you trust Him and want to be with Him.



Again, I agree with you, we are to obey the Gospel. But my question was not "What is obedience" My question was "What is the Gospel?"

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So to "obey the gospel" is to forsake everything (all sin, self, selfishness) and follow Christ. Not just follow after some external law, but to follow Christ from the heart.



Again, what evidence do I have that I am following Christ from the heart?

 2007/7/20 1:11
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Brother nile,
Please forgive me for the delay in answering you, I did not want to simply throw up some random gibberish, but rahter wanted to look at your questions for a bit.

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1. Which sin do I not need to repent of to be saved?



Repentance is not what justifies a man before God, if so, Judas would have been saved(MT 37:3)

What justifies or does away with our condemnation is faith-
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Rom 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
Rom 4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
Rom 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
Rom 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
Rom 4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have [b]peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.[/b]
I have highlighted these portions so you see, that our peace with God is not based on something, but rather Someone. Note also that Paul says we "stand" in this grace, not slip or fall, but stand and rejoice in the hope of glory.

Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Rom 10:4 For [b]Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.[/b]

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Repentance is a fruit of faith, and not the cause of it.

This faith is only given by God to whom He will, when He will-
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to [b]them that believe on his name:[/b]
Joh 1:13 [b]Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.[/b]

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

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2. If sin every day, am I not living in sin?



You do sin every day as do I in one way or another. Thus we must have a substitute whose obedience and righteousness is imputed to us.

This is why Christ is referred to as a "surety"(Heb 7:22), or one who undertakes to pay another man's debt, in case the debtor should through unfaithfulness or poverty be unable to do so. We are most unable to pay the debt we owe.

Christ also is referred to as a "mediator", or one who restores peace as a go between.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

God requires a perfect round the clock obedience, and no man can do this save One man the man Christ Jesus. Thus we need His righteousness, and to be placed in Him before the Father.

Now those who would dare say, "since we are justified, let us sin all we want!" Paul foresees this, and writes Romans 6:1-3 to counter this, "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?"

Thus showing that a justifying faith will lead to the process of sanctification.

We can never in our flesh be holy enough to warrant Heaven, but Christ intercedes on our behalf, and we have the promise of Romans 8:29,30
"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

Also look at-
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

And we may link this Christ being the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world
(Rev 13:8)

Also one more-
Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Notice here those who believe enter into rest, this rest is Christ, but also, notice when these works were done, in "the foundation of the world."


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3. If I commit the same sin every day, have I repented of it?



Yes, but you must continue to, and God may leave that sin with you for awhile. God could in a second eradicate all sin in His children, yet He does it little by little.

The main thrust of your questions seem to stem from the idea that you can make yourself good enough to be accepted by God. But dear brother, Christ is the only righteousness God accepts, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags to Him. Christ's righteousness attributed to us is perfect, and completely by grace through faith, and not of ourselves or our works.

Many blessings to you brother nile


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/7/20 1:25Profile





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