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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Did Peter remain saved during his denial??

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roaringlamb
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

I think too that it is important to note how we throw out the term "saved" to mean many things.

But the thrust of our question should be when was Peter justified? That is the issue. He may have been justifed before Pentecost simply because he understood who Christ was-
Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, [b]Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.[/b]

In the Jewish mind, this was saying, "you are the sin bearer, the deliverer, you are the one who is to free Israel." In the OT the faith in the One to come was counted as righteousness.

Ultimately Peter was "saved" when he was hung on the cross, and entered into glory.


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/7/14 14:49Profile









 Re:

Quote:
I don't think all backsliddings put one in a state of condemnation.

Salvation is a concept of faith, knowledge, hope and placement, not of initial acts.
Example; if one bears a false witness, is one in a state of condemnation during that lie?



Yes, lying in particular always puts one in a state of condemnation because, since lying is the intention to deceive, and therefore must always be willfull.

Revelations 21:8 says ALL liars will have their part in the lake of fire. It's such a serious sin (as all sin is), because truth is so valuable, and lying is open rebellion against God, and so God makes no exceptions regarding liars (or any rebels/sinners) - they all must repent or perish.

Mistakes and accidents do not put someone automaticly in a state of condemnation. For example, genuinely thinking something is true -spreading that truth - only later to find out you were mistaken. That is not lying, ie the intent to deceive, but was a mistake and accident, in which you cannot be blamed because you acted in accordance with the best of your knowledge, and with a pure intention.

But Heb 10:26-31 in particular says all willfull sins put's someone in a state of condemnation, and they can only be restored through repentance (turning from sin and turning back to Jesus).

I suppose the only alternative is to say that sins cannot harm a Christian, and they can commit countless willfull sins and still have no condemnation. In which case, Christians are lawless and yet without judgment.

But this is so contradictory to the words of Christ who said "not everyone who says Lord Lord will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. But he that DOETH the will of my Father". And also "depart from me, you worker of iniquity (worker of lawlessness) I never knew you."

So Christians are not lawless, and are still in a state of probation; the law must condemn all who willfully break it.

 2007/7/14 23:39









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Quote:
Mistakes and accidents do not put someone automaticly in a state of condemnation. For example, genuinely thinking something is true -spreading that truth - only later to find out you were mistaken. That is not lying, ie the intent to deceive, but was a mistake and accident, in which you cannot be blamed because you acted in accordance with the best of your knowledge, and with a pure intention.





Jesse, sin is sin. Those two places in Revelation about lying is the continual practice and the Liars are in with all those 'other' sins that are ingrained in the person, habitual or continuous practice - making them "Liars" rather than one who makes a mistake, as you said about "other sins" and the other verse says, "whosoever LOVETH and maketh a lie" --- that's continual practice and Loving the sin.

Same with the 1John verses. That is when someone is in a "life-style" of sin, not just a fumbling in our Love for Him by commiting an act against His will one time.

Even fierce struggling cannot be compared to habitual/continuous/willful/lifestyle sin.

 2007/7/14 23:58









 Re:

If it takes a lifestyle of sin to be condemned, why did it only take one for Adam? And why did only one lie kill Ananias and Safira in the book of Acts?

And what would quality as a "lifestyle of sin"?? Would "sinning every day in word, thought, and dead" be a "lifestyle" or "continual" sin that condemns you?

And if sinning every day isn't a lifestyle of sin, what is? Does it take sinning every hour, or every second, before you have a "lifestyle of sin", before you are "continually sinning"??

And if so, do you agree with me that sinning every minute, every hour, every day most certainly condemns the one who does it? Because such is continuance in sin, a lifestyle of sin?

"The wages of [continual] sin is death" ???

And if one lie doesn't merit condemnation, what about three in a row?

If three in a row is continual lying, then was Peter condemned when he lied three times when he denied knowing Christ?

 2007/7/15 0:18









 Re:

Jesse, have you ever been afraid or have your faith shaken so that you felt that you weren't believing God for as much as you should ?

Then compare those two things with this ...

Rev 21:8 But [u]the fearful, and unbelieving[/u], and abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


Brother, Adam ate from The Tree of Good & Evil.

That was never to be seen again, because God closed off Eden from thence forth.

His sin cursed the earth and all mankind.

You cannot compare his "sin" to ours. He was born perfect ... and he embodied all mankind and affected all of mankind forever. You don't.

GOD in HIS Foreknowledge, knew (fortunately) what you will do tomorrow.

Either His blood has covered that when He placed His seal of ownership on you, or you are in and out of Christ with each thought that doesn't Come directly from Him.

We are to come into His Image, not our Image of what we think He's trying to make us.

Each time you do not follow His Voice and leading, you are sinning.

If that's true, then your theory would have us all in continual condemnation.

Missing the mark is the definition for sin.

HE or HIS IMAGE is the Mark.

Wherever you walk or think in your own strength and not by His Leading - you're out of His Will, which is called sinning.

Every thought Jesse. Every thought.

 2007/7/15 0:27









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And why did only one lie kill Ananias and Safira in the book of Acts?

And what qualifies as a "lifestyle of sin"??

What qualifies as "continuing in sin"?

It's very important that you share that with me. If the wages of continual sin is death, I need to know what continual sin is.

If the blood of Christ does not cover a lifestyle of sin, what is a lifestyle of sin?

Does a lifestyle of sin, and continual sin, consist in sinning every day?

 2007/7/15 0:29









 Re:

Jesus said, they do not come to the Light because they Love the darkness.

Like cockroaches. They love their sin.

God is Love --- Satan is Hate.

God is Light --- Satan is darkness.

Those who "walk in the darkness and love it" are an abomination unto the Lord.

There are sinners, who hate their sin, but don't know "how" to come out of it, because they've either not been taught about Jesus at all or they have been taught to save themselves by the letter of the law, rather than the spirit of the law.

He asks for our "will" -- which is "our heart".

HE KNOWS whose heart He has ... but their are those who have hardened their heart to such an extent, they will never come to the light.

They love unrighteousness. And that is far different from someone who is struggling.

One need not sin everyday to be spiritually dead.
It's the condition of the heart.
GOD looks at the heart of men. Look at King David.
I for one had a hard time understanding why GOD would say that "David was a man after God's own heart". Hoy Vey .... a murderer/adulter/bigomist/liar and so on ?

Ha, I had to really stretch on that one, yet Jesus calls Himself the Son of David ... again .... Hoy Vey ... but that is what HE said.
Go figure.

He looks at the heart ... we can but we don't.

The LORD said, all that HE did, we can do.
We just don't believe Him. (which is sin btw).

The first Church had many things happen that needed to be recorded for our admonition.

Ananias and Saphira were HYPOCRITS not just LIARS.

They were phonies. You could probably call those two TARES.

God demonstrated His power through-out the book of ACTS and if we're not living a life as they did, we're sinning.

We're not believing GOD still works that way.

Many "drop-dead" today under the power of a Holy GOD.

As long as we are STRIVING for righteousness, which means ---- TO BE JUST LIKE HIM BY HIS POWER ONLY ---- He knows our hearts in that.

We should always have in us, that Holy fear or reverence that we are Not Like Him.

Walking in the Spirit is His command.

Working for God in the flesh is disgusting to Him. A lifetime of working, thinking, acting in our own strength or flesh or power even FOR GOD is continual sin.

I think inside you already know what "continual/lifestyle sin" is.

 2007/7/15 0:47









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Quote:
He asks for our "will" -- which is "our heart".



I completely agree. And it is a daily choice to deny yourself (your will) and pick up your cross and follow Christ (God's will).

My point is that if someone is not carrying their cross and following Jesus, they cannot be presently in a state of salvation, but must be in a state of condemnation, because they are sinning instead of following Jesus.

Those who seek to save their life will lose it. When Peter denied Christ, he was seeking to save his life, and was not wanting to pick up his cross. He was not presently following Jesus, but later choice to do so and eventually was crucified.

Only those who are presently following Jesus can have the salvation offered in Jesus. But those who leave Jesus for sin, cannot have the salvation offered in Jesus.

Quote:
GOD looks at the heart of men



That was my point exactly when I distinguished between a mistake and a sin.

God looks at your heart, and judges you by what you knew, by what you were capable of, and by your intention.

There is no occassion for guilt, blame, or fault, when a person's intention is benevolent, when their heart is pure; in other words, if they "mean well" what can they be blamed for? Their heart, or intention, is right. Even though they are imperfect in knowledge, they are pure in heart.

Quote:
I think inside you already know what "continual/lifestyle sin" is.



Yes I do. It consists in sinning daily instead of dying daily.

Continual/lifestyle of sin would be giving into temptation everytime your tempted, which is daily.

But Christianity starts when a person dies to self when they are tempted, which is daily.

 2007/7/15 1:13









 Re:

Quote:
Re:
by Lazarus1719

Quote:
-------------------------------

He asks for our "will" -- which is "our heart".
-------------------------------


I completely agree. And it is a daily choice to deny yourself (your will) and pick up your cross and follow Christ (God's will).

My point is that if someone is not carrying their cross and following Jesus, they cannot be presently in a state of salvation, but must be in a state of condemnation, because they are sinning instead of following Jesus.

Those who seek to save their life will lose it. When Peter denied Christ, he was seeking to save his life, and was not wanting to pick up his cross. He was not presently following Jesus, but later choice to do so and eventually was crucified.

Only those who are presently following Jesus can have the salvation offered in Jesus. But those who leave Jesus for sin, cannot have the salvation offered in Jesus.




Hia Jesse, I don't know what I'm doing up this late tonite. Ha.

I have some problem with you using that term "a state of condemnation" ... that means, if someone botches and dies in car crash, let's say the crash was because he got angry for a moment, then if he dies, he'll go to hell.

That's what "state of condemnation" means to me.

Is that what you mean ? Consigned to hell at that point that they are not perfect ?

What you said above is ... that if we do anything outside of his will we are condemned ?

I think in your good intentions, you have been taught about the letter of the law rather than the spirit of the law, but that is the whole problem in the whole Church.

IF, we understood what "hearing His voice & following Him" was or "walking in the Spirit" as He did ... [b]completely[/b] Dependent on GOD for every word, thought and deed ..... Nothing of ourselves and all of HIM, then how many of us could say we are "like HIM in this world" ?

WE don't just "imitate" HIM, we must allow Him to conform us into His Image.

Death to self doesn't normally happen over nite.
That is what "take up your cross" represents.

Not all can say .... "nevertheless, [u]it is no longer I that live but Christ[/u] that liveth in me and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by [u]the faith of[/u] the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Some few folks pick up on this "walking in His Spirit" more easily. They can come as a little child and have no "knowledge" of thier "own" .... and read the book of Acts lets say, and just say, WOW, I want to walk as they did and I know that only Jesus can speak to me His very thoughts and power. And then they wait and listen for Him every waking minute of the day.

Some folks mock those type people and ask, "Did GOD tell you what to have for dinner tonight ?"

YES - He did as a matter of fact. And HE can and will if we let HIM. I'm not ashamed to answer those type folks. If they want to walk autonomously for the rest of their days, well, they may still be saved, but their works will be burnt up, because they didn't originate from the Him/His Spirit.

So, if becoming like a little child, totally aware of our own ignorance and dependent on Him for every thought and what proceeds those thoughts, then if we step outside of His thoughts, yes, we are sinning, even if the thoughts are not what Church folks call "sinful thoughts".

GOD is calling this last generation to full dependence on HIM, so that they can get through what's coming and be as those who Daniel and John spoke of ... but they can't do it with the letter of the law.

That's why this drawing of the fine line in this conversation is so very important.

If we walk in the Spirit, He will even tell us things to come.

Walking in the Spirit, is losing our own thoughts completely to dependence that HE will direct completely. His sheep will continuously hear His Voice and continously follow Him.

That's nothing of us and all of Him.

But if you say, that one who is not quite there yet is in a state of condemnation ... then you don't understand GOD's Foreknowledge of those that are His and who will be saved in the end.

Could you just rethink what "condemnation" is ?

God does not condemn His Elect. His Elect will make mistakes, but they are His Elect because He Foreknew what their end would be. So they cannot be in a "state of condemnation" ever.

Condemnation means HELL bound.

Hope we can talk more some other time. Church day today.

Thanks brother.
Annie


Edit: Something stil going through my mind.

We're going to HAVE to learn to walk in complete trusting dependence on Him now, or else we'll be fearful & possibly unbelieving when the rubber meets the road soon.
Can't shake that thought and had to spill it out.

Thanks again.
HIS LOVE!

 2007/7/15 1:38









 Re:

Quote:
I have some problem with you using that term "a state of condemnation" ... that means, if someone botches and dies in car crash, let's say the crash was because he got angry for a moment, then if he dies, he'll go to hell.

That's what "state of condemnation" means to me.




By "state of condemnation" I mean that if they die in their willfull/intentional sin, they will go to hell.

Eze 18:24 - But when the [b]righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity,[/b] and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? [b]All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be remembered[/b]: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, [b]in them shall he die.[/b]

If Peter died, while he was in his denial of the Lord, Jesus would deny Peter before the angels of Heaven. Those who deny Christ will be denied by Christ, unless they repent.

Anyone who is in willfull sin must be, for the time being, in a state of condemnation. Only those who have repented (turned from sin) and are in a state of love for God and Jesus (and thus keep His commandments) are in a state of salvation, since God offers grace to all repented sins, but condemns eternally [i]all[/i] willfull sins.

God grants people "time to repent" (Rev 2:21) but there is also a point when a person "sins away their day of grace" and God may kill them on the spot, when all their time to repent is over, and God allows them to die in their willfull sin and go to hell. This is proven by the fact that some do die in impenitence and sin.

And if someone is in sin when Jesus comes back, they must perish. The bride must make herself ready, to be spotless and without fault or blemish. The master of the house will destroy those servants who are in sin when he returns, but will reward those whom he finds watching. Mt 24:46, Lu 12:43

Quote:
Condemnation means HELL bound.



I agree. They are hell bound unless they repent.

Quote:
Hope we can talk more some other time. Church day today.

Thanks brother.
Annie



Good night sister.

:-)

 2007/7/15 1:47





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