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 Did Peter remain saved during his denial??

A friend of mine shared on a different board a view which I thought was interesting.

Quote:
I believe a man can be regenerated. I don't believe you can be regenerated, then be degenerated, and then be regenerated again.

In other words, you can't be born again, leave salvation, and come back.



I know this is not an uncommon view. Some on these forums may share with my friends opinion. My question though, how does this fit into the denial of Christ the Apostle Peter repeatedly did?

[b]Consider this facts of this very interesting situation:[/b]

[b]1.[/b] The Father gave Peter a revelation of Jesus being the Christ: Matt 16:16-17, Mark 8:29-10, Luke 9:20

[b]2.[/b] Jesus commissioned Peter (along with Judas and the others) to preach the gospel, heal the sick, and cast out demons: Luke 10:1-16

He called them his sheep (vs 3), affirmed that they were a part of the Kingdom of God (vs 11), and that those who reject them reject Christ (vs 16)

[b]3.[/b] Jesus told Peter his name was written in the book of life:
Luke 10:20

[b]4.[/b] Those who deny Christ before men cannot be presently in a state of salvation and face possible condemnation in the future: Matt 10:33

[b]5.[/b] Peter denied Christ before men: Matt 26:34, Luke 22:34

[b]6.[/b] Peter needed to be converted after this incident: Luke 22:32


[b]Considering these facts, there are only three options:[/b]

[b]1.[/b] Peter was not saved before denying Christ, not while denying Christ, but was saved for the first time after that.

If this is true, why would Jesus assure Peter that His name was written in the book of life, before Peter denied Christ?

Also, it would mean that Christ sent out an unsaved man to preach the gospel, heal the sick, and cast out demons. And that Christ said an unsaved person was a sheep, apart of the Kingdom of God, and His representative. If Peter was of the devil when he did all that, did Satan cast out Satan?

[b]2.[/b] Peter was saved the entire time, during his mission to preach the gospel - cast out demons - and heal the sick, during his denial of Christ, and after his denial of Christ.

Problems with this is that it means a saved person can utterly lie three times about Christ, which Christ said denying Him has eternal consequences, and Revelations 21:8 says all liars without exception face eternal hell.

It also doesn't explain Christ telling people to strengthen the brethren "when thou art converted". How can a man in the state of conversion be converted? Only the unconverted can be converted.

[b]3.[/b] Peter was saved before denying Christ, fell into temporary backslidings - in which he must have been in a condemned condition, and then later was converted again unto Christ.

I believe this last one makes the most scriptural sense. It means that even a genuine Christian can fall into backsliding, during which he is in a state of condemnation, but can be restored to the faith, and thereby his his spiritual soul saved from eternal death.

James 5:19-20: I believe explains this case with Peter.

“Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; let him know, that ye which converts the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.”

While some sin is not unto death, in which a sinner or backslider can repent from and be either converted for the first time or restored to the faith, there is also a sin unto death in which there is no more return, a state of probation when no more enlightenment is possible, and therefore no more repentance can occur.

This sin unto death, in which restoration is impossible, a state of no return, or total apostacy, because no futher enlightenment is possible, is what I believe this scripture speaks of:

Heb 6:4-6: For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.


Anyways, the only answer to the question is one of the 3 I listed, unless anyone else sees a 4th option which I failed to think of?

 2007/7/14 3:23









 Re: Did Peter remain saved during his denial??

Peter was saved, because of God's foreknowledge of what Peter 'would do'.

Jesus said to him, Satan has desired to sift you as wheat, but I have prayed for you, and when you are 'recovered', strengthen the brethren.

He knows those which are His.

He knows those who will be faithful unto the end, even if they stumble.

Foreknowledge of what each human being will do from the day they're born until the day they die is how GOD determines Election.
He knew before the foundations of the world what each of us would do and how we would wind up in the end, by our own choices.

Otherwise, freewill is out the window completely.

 2007/7/14 7:23









 Re: Did Peter remain saved during his denial??

If our perspective on the salvation of God is simply to remain saved (sin confess..sin confess), then I can see where we might not have any more answers, but...

According to the scripture, God told Israel that He brought them out of Egypt in order to bring them into their inheritance.

Quote:
8And I am come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians, and to bring them up out of that land unto a good land and a large, unto a land flowing with milk and honey; unto the place of the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites.



He brought them out, to bring them in...

This too, is God's plan for every believer. God brought us out of our sin, to bring us into our inheritance..which is Christ. His life. He is our inheritance. The purpose of God is that we might be conformed into the image of His Son.

And failure, coming face to face with the reality of who we are, apart from Christ, is a major part of that process.

When Jacob wrestled with God, he had to confess who he really was. He was Jacob...a deceiver. And then God gave Him a new name.

This is why getting Justification right is so important. If we are not confident in our standing with God, then there is no way that He can begin to show us all of our sin nature, our flesh, our weakness. We will never have rest. We will always think we are condemned.

And so Peter...strong, self-confident, Peter, The one who said he would never forsake Jesus. Peter.

He was brought to a place where his own strength failed. He wanted to be strong. He wanted to stand with Jesus, but he could not find the strength to do it (sound familiar...Romans 7 maybe...) And so He denied Jesus. He failed. He sinned. And it was all the purpose, plan, and the will of God.

Peter's strength had to fail because the kingdom of God does not move forward by the strength of man, or the will of man...."It's not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit, says the Lord.

 2007/7/14 9:26









 Re:

Quote:
by Mahoney
This too, is God's plan for every believer. God brought us out of our sin, to bring us into our inheritance..which is Christ. His life. He is our inheritance. The purpose of God is that we might be conformed into the image of His Son.

And failure, coming face to face with the reality of who we are, apart from Christ, is a major part of that process.



Amen Mahoney,

Rom 8:28, 29 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.[b]For[/b] whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

 2007/7/14 9:33
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re: Did Peter remain saved during his denial??

Quote:
Lazarus1719 wrote:

[b]3.[/b] Peter was saved before denying Christ, fell into temporary backslidings - in which he must have been in a condemned condition, and then later was converted again unto Christ.

I believe this last one makes the most scriptural sense. It means that even a genuine Christian can fall into backsliding, during which he is in a state of condemnation, but can be restored to the faith, and thereby his his spiritual soul saved from eternal death.

I don't think all backsliddings put one in a state of condemnation.

Salvation is a concept of faith, knowledge, hope and placement, not of initial acts.
Example; if one bears a false witness, is one in a state of condemnation during that lie?

 2007/7/14 10:36Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

I hope these responses have sufficiently answered your question Jesse.

 2007/7/14 12:20Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Another point to ponder as well as when in time did this happen. What I mean is was Peter sealed with the Holy Spirit as we read in the Epistles, or was this prior to that being possible?

If we would look at Scripture we would see the following-

Joh 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

This happens after the denial of course, and we also understand that the day of Pentecost was after the denial as well, but at this time had not happened yet. Pentecost opened the door to the universal indwelling of God's people by His Spirit, whereas prior to this it was certain individuals that were sealed, or empowered by the Spirit of the Lord.

Now though the Spirit is the earnest of Heaven, and is in all those who are regenrated.

As siter Annie brought up these verses, I think they answer the question pretty clearly-
Luk 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and [b]when thou art converted,[/b] strengthen thy brethren.
Luk 22:33 And he said unto him, Lord, I am ready to go with thee, both into prison, and to death.

Peter was very quick to show the Lord how willing his flesh was, but we know that in the heat of the moment the fleshly boldness wilted, and denied the very One whom Peter said he loved. Thus Jesus makes the point, "when you are converted" or when you are made a different man, strengthen your brethren.


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/7/14 13:00Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
Another point to ponder as well as when in time did this happen. What I mean is was Peter sealed with the Holy Spirit as we read in the Epistles, or was this prior to that being possible?

If we would look at Scripture we would see the following-

Joh 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

This happens after the denial of course, and we also understand that the day of Pentecost was after the denial as well, but at this time had not happened yet. Pentecost opened the door to the universal indwelling of God's people by His Spirit, whereas prior to this it was certain individuals that were sealed, or empowered by the Spirit of the Lord.

Now though the Spirit is the earnest of Heaven, and is in all those who are regenrated.

As siter Annie brought up these verses, I think they answer the question pretty clearly-
Luk 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and [b]when thou art converted,[/b] strengthen thy brethren.
Luk 22:33 And he said unto him, Lord, I am ready to go with thee, both into prison, and to death.

Peter was very quick to show the Lord how willing his flesh was, but we know that in the heat of the moment the fleshly boldness wilted, and denied the very One whom Peter said he loved. Thus Jesus makes the point, "when you are converted" or when you are made a different man, strengthen your brethren.

[b]Joh 17:3[/b] [color=990000]"Now this is eternal life: that they shall be knowing You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You sent.[/color]

Peter had eternal life by the relationship he had with Him. While Jesus was on Earth, He was that "earnest of Heaven"

[b]John 15:3 [color=990000][u]Now[/u][/b] you are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. [/color]
This was said in relation to being in the Vine.
[color=990000]Abide in me, and I in you[/color][Now that you are clean] [color=990000]As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can you, except you abide in me.[/color] [b]John 15:4[/n]

This was said also before Peter's denial in Chapt. 18.

 2007/7/14 13:25Profile
PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

Quote:
A friend of mine shared on a different board a view which I thought was interesting.



Glad to see I'm a friend! :-)

Here is my response on the other board.

Quote:
Anyways brother Josh, I was wondering your perspective of the Apostle Peter. Did you affirm one of those 3 options I listed, or is there a 4th option I failed to think of??



My whole system of thinking is probably different than yours...

First, I would say Peter was never regenerated until Pentecost. In my mind regeneration is a new covenant phenomena. How can you be baptized into His death and raised in newness of life before Christ died and resurrected? The new covenant wasn't into effect until Christ blood was shed. If those things aren't true, then what is the difference of the covenants? I can find scriptures in the OT that even use the same language as "receiving a new heart" but if it means the exact same thing then there really isn't any difference between the covenants, maybe you can say there are "new laws" but that's about the extent of it. Since theology is systematic and you reject a few things I embrace, we are going to have obvious differences in this topic.

Regeneration is when the old man has been made inoperatble ie dead and you now have a new man- something only He alone can do. Conversion is when you turn to God. I'm not wanting to debate this with a Calvinist, but my view is the exact opposite of a Calvinist. I believe conversion precedes regeneration. You turn to God, He changes your heart.

So, in my thinking you could never be a true "partaker of the divine nature" until the new covenant, Peter was never regenerated, unregenerated before the Cross and then regenerated after it. But rather was converted, unconverted before the cross and was both converted and regenerated after the cross. I hope I don't sound like I'm making up things as I go, because I'm really not!

Quote:
James 5:19-20: I believe explains this case with Peter.

“Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; let him know, that ye which converts the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.”

(I know you said the James was written to a synagogue, but it must have been a synagogue that was in the faith, because James assumed their faith 1:2-3; 2:1)

And if James was written to believers, and not to unbelievers, 5:12 declares that believers can actually "fall into condemnation". Besides, none can "err from the truth" but those who are walking in the truth, and none walk in the truth but believers.



I see that admonition in the book of James no different than if I were to write a letter to a church about their faith and at the end I think there may be some that are not really turned to Christ and say "if one of you are away from the faith and another of you convert him, let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins."


_________________
Josh Parsley

 2007/7/14 13:54Profile









 Re:

I believe everyone covered this subject very well.At what point he was saved I don’t believe I could make the call. I would say it is hard to tell. He was following to a degree when he said" Lord we have fished all night and have not caught anything, but he cast out into the deep anyway". Afterwards he seemed to understand he was sinful in doubting Jesus’ instruction to cast out into the deep. He said something along the lines of get away from me for I am a sinful man, after the big catch. He seemed to show some doubt when he said, “Lord if it is you tells me to come to you on the water”. He grew in knowledge when he took his eyes off Jesus and began to sink. He really was crushed when he realized what he had done when he denied Jesus three times and cussed one of those times alluding to convince them he was not a follower of Jesus. He went to sleep while Jesus was praying in the garden but afterwards defended Jesus and cut off the soldier’s ear. I believe it is a picture for all of us who follow and fail. After all that, he followed instructions and waited in the upper room until the winds blew and the tongues of fire fell and filled the room and they were filled with the Spirit and he was one of those who wrote the New Testament under the inspiration of that Spirit for a light unto our feet and a lamp unto our pathway today. It requires the same Spirit to understand the scriptures as it did for the Apostles to write them. On the Day of Pentecost that Spirit was made manifest in Peter when he preached Jesus in the same place Jesus was crucified. Just as Peter, we all can look back at some things we had rather forget about we have done and said, but the main thing is after we believed in our heart and confessed with our mouth have we seen the Holy Spirit's power manifested in our life and we can look back and see we have not quit following HIM. The question we should ask ourselves as believers. Do we see any change in our life? Do we see any change that can only be explained by HIS Spirit and HIS POWER? As the Word says examine ourselves to see if we are of the faith.

edit:
Luke 22:31-34
31 "Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift you as wheat. 32 But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers."
33 But he replied, "Lord, I am ready to go with you to prison and to death."
34 Jesus answered, "I tell you, Peter, before the rooster crows today, you will deny three times that you know me."

Acts 2:38-41

38 Peter replied, [b][i]"Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins.[/b][/i] And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.[u]39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off-for all whom the Lord our God will call.[/u]
40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them,[b] "Save yourselves from this corrupt generation."[/b] 41 [b]Those who accepted his message were baptized[/b], and about three thousand were added to their number that day.
(from New International Version)



 2007/7/14 14:19





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