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rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re: Freewill & Boasting

How does this Scripture confirm or contradict your example
Brother Lazarus?

Job 33

14 For God may speak in one way, or in another,
Yet man does not perceive it.
15 In a dream, in a vision of the night,
When deep sleep falls upon men,
While slumbering on their beds,
16 Then He opens the ears of men,
And seals their instruction.
17 In order to turn man from his deed,
And conceal pride from man,
18 He keeps back his soul from the Pit,
And his life from perishing by the sword.
19 “Man is also chastened with pain on his bed,
And with strong pain in many of his bones,
20 So that his life abhors bread,
And his soul succulent food.
21 His flesh wastes away from sight,
And his bones stick out which once were not seen.
22 Yes, his soul draws near the Pit,
And his life to the executioners.
23 “If there is a messenger for him,
A mediator, one among a thousand,
To show man His uprightness,
24 Then He is gracious to him, and says,
“Deliver him from going down to the Pit;
I have found a ransom’;
25 His flesh shall be young like a child’s,
He shall return to the days of his youth.
26 He shall pray to God, and He will delight in him,
He shall see His face with joy,
For He restores to man His righteousness.
27 Then he looks at men and says,
“I have sinned, and perverted what was right,
And it did not profit me.’
28 He will redeem his soul from going down to the Pit,
And his life shall see the light.
29 “Behold, God works all these things,
Twice, in fact, three times with a man,
30 To bring back his soul from the Pit,
That he may be enlightened with the light of life.

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2007/7/13 1:01Profile









 Re:

Freewill is simply the ability to will. It does not necessarily mean the ability to perform.

I may want to walk on water. I can want that because I have freewill. But I do not have the ability to actually do it. I only have the ability to will it.

Freewill is limited to willing. It has nothing to do with what your physical body can perform.

Freewill is not the gift of being super man, being able to do and perform everything that's possible. Freewill is simply the ability to voluntarily want one thing and not want the other, and vise versa.

Thus a sinner may want to be pardoned, and want to have salvation. But that comes only by God's grace, who graciously pardons our sin and saves us.

 2007/7/13 2:15
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

Brother Lazarus wrote:

Quote:
Freewill is simply the ability to voluntarily want one thing and not want the other, and vise versa.



This brings to mind...

Gen. 3:4 Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

15 Curds and honey He shall eat, that He may know to refuse the evil and choose the good. 16 For before the Child shall know to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land that you dread will be forsaken by both her kings.

According to Scripture man now is exposed to the aquisistion of the knowledge of good and evil which is provided by the spiritual world. I see free will as the "choice" one is given to whom he follows...God or Satan.

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2007/7/13 2:28Profile









 Re:

Quote:
I see free will as the "choice" one is given to whom he follows...God or Satan.



I could not agree more! We are not robots, machines, or puppets. We are free moral agents with the ability of choice.

 2007/7/13 2:31
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

Brother Lazarus,

Sorry I just edited my prior statement...you were too fast...

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2007/7/13 2:32Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

What always seems to be missing in our theology concerning the condition of man is the relationship that man has with the spiritual world. The idea of conscience and what that actually means. The idea of how evil is dispensed by the spiritual powers represented by Satan and his dominion. And likewise, the light that is generated by the Light that is given to all men.

In Christ
jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2007/7/13 2:38Profile









 Re:

In the realm of morality, both God and Satan opperate with man through influence and response, as opposed to cause and effect.

God influences towards righteousness with truth.

The devil influences towards unrighteousness with deception.

That is why our moral condition is truly our own, because the realm of morality is not cause and effect, so we cannot say "the devil made me do it".

 2007/7/13 2:42









 Re:

Sin could not exist in a world without voluntary free volition.

Rapists are sinners because they don't have to sin but choose to do it anyways. They are not rapists by birth or circumstance, but by choice.

Likewise with murderers, molesters, adulterers, liars, sodomites, thieves, etc etc. They have nothing but their own freewill to blame for their sin. They cannot blame Adam, nature, circumstances, the devil, or God. But only their own freewill.

A world without freewill would be a world without sin. Moral character, or the quality of a moral action, and morality itself, can only be predicated to voluntary volition, it can only be derived from freewill. A man without freewill would be a man without sin, without moral character, who's actions have no moral quality, a man who is not subjected to moral accountability.

 2007/7/13 3:42
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

Quote:
But only their own freewill.



This reminds me of this Scripture...

Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2007/7/13 4:34Profile
whyme
Member



Joined: 2007/4/3
Posts: 293


 Re:

Lazarus,

Would you agree that the will is exercised according to the desires of the heart? If so, shouldn't the debate center on what the desires of the human heart are and where and how those desires are created? It seems to me in my humble opinion that the debate of free will seems to get stuck in a merry go round upon the command of God that man "choose" or take some other action in response to God's commands or entreaties. This choice is merely the effect of the exercise of the will and the exercise of the will is merely the effect of the cause of a particular desire in the man.

The choice or obedience is based in the will which is a response to the desires of the heart. That is where the first sin of Adam began, he desired something then exercised his will and made a choice against God and for self. The whole concept of free will to me is really a misnomer. The proper title should be "self will" versus " God's will". This would seem obvious since a solid ground of our faith that we all seem to agree on is a desire after we're saved to surrender our self will to God's will. Where did that desire come from? Most of us would agree that self will is a bad thing. Being conformed to the image of Christ is a process of the death of self will and a completely yielding to God's.

Scripture gives us a very solid answer about the desires of men's hearts before conversion and the desires of the heart after and I will not go over well covered ground in that regard.



 2007/7/13 9:32Profile





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