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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Should we believe the trinity?

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crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

This is outstanding you guys!

May I interject something from a common city dweller who lacks a formal education?

Please don't misunderstand, I and many surely appreciate the time and effort of all this scholarly exegesis and Lord knows we need it with all the deviating doctrines that abound these days. And I appreciate this so much, it has broadened my understanding. So if you like, this is just a little wedge to throw in the mix.

[i]1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are [b]spiritually discerned[/b].[/i]

Of the many, John 1:1-14 has to be my favorite set's of scripture, these have got to be the most incredible words ever strung together and applied to parchment. More than that the meaning(s)that they carry and become even more expressive as we get to verse 14.

What majesty, what beauty, what an incredible revelation is revealed here. Every time I read them, it's like the very first time, like I have never seen them before. It stops me dead in my tracks. Such a sense of awe...
I can never get past the thought that it is impossible that a mere man could have penned these words out of his own imaginings...

[i]Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.[/i]

[i] Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.[/i]

[i][b]And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us[/b][/i]

Amazing, unimaginable, incredible... I am besides myself.

I guess what I really wanted to say was that I never understood it otherwise than as it was written from the get go. The first time I heard a JW version that changed it to 'a god' it was like desecrating the temple, it caused my soul to deeply grieve, this cannot be, you cannot do this! I didn't have the foggiest idea of any of the syntax, the Greek, the how's, what's or whys. Just a flat out repulsion of spirit, if we lived in a different day, I would have run for my sword and not spared any till it was eradicated from the earth, perhaps I still feel that way, but the Lord would have me [i]"Put away thy sword"[/i]

Forgive me if my zeal has eaten me up.
Just a spiritual point of view from a silly fisherman...


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Mike Balog

 2004/4/22 11:05Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re: Trinity of Trinities

Robert,
I like it, many thanks. It has gone straight into my quotebook.


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Ron Bailey

 2004/4/22 11:06Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Mike writes Forgive me if my zeal has eaten me up.
Just a spiritual point of view from a silly fisherman...

you're in good company... a simple fisherman wrote this...

The wonder of the book is that every level its precision and cohesion becomes more and more thrilling. It is the same water on the surface as in the depths.


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Ron Bailey

 2004/4/22 11:10Profile
Delboy
Member



Joined: 2004/2/8
Posts: 199
Worthing UK

 Re: Robert's quote

ME to! that was cut and pasted as soon as i read it! FANTASTIC Robert


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derek Eyre

 2004/4/22 11:19Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Quote:
The wonder of the book is that every level its precision and cohesion becomes more and more thrilling. It is the same water on the surface as in the depths.



And this is going straight into my quotes file!
Thanks Ron.

Edit: Thanks for the reminder you guy's, Robert, much thanks for this, can be sure it will come in handy.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2004/4/22 11:21Profile
Delboy
Member



Joined: 2004/2/8
Posts: 199
Worthing UK

 Re:

Nekaras,your first post included the following

Quote:
I was studing with a friend of mine who does not believe in the trinity. I want to through some scriptures out there that he used to discredit the trinity. Hopefully this will get us on our toes in answering theological questions.



After so much meat are you getting satisfied? Surely your friend will be persuaded
The second post from Jeremy asked you about your position,remember?(i know its way back)
What is your stance now Friend? :-)


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derek Eyre

 2004/4/22 11:24Profile
InTheLight
Member



Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2737
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re: deity of Christ

Here is a link to an article written by Greg Koukl that lays out a argument for the diety of Christ using John 1:3. It is very effective with Arians, it's worth a read;

[url=http://www.str.org/free/solid_ground/SG0007.htm]Diety of Christ[/url]

In Christ,

Ron


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Ron Halverson

 2004/4/22 11:28Profile
nekaras
Member



Joined: 2004/4/19
Posts: 12


 Re:

[i]crsschk:
Just a spiritual point of view from a silly fisherman...[/i]
Are you really a fisherman.

[i]RobertW:
Consider the following Scientific observation of God’s creation . . .[/i]
That is really cool.

[i]openairboy:
The NWT, which translates John 1:1 in your manner, is completely arbitrary in their use of the Greek text and is clearly prejudiced to diminish the glory of Jesus Christ.[/i]
I know someone would bring up JW's. 'Your manner?' I am not a translator. Nor do I believe Jesus was a god. I have read many papers about the translation and most point to God and not a god. Some of them are not even believers! In the beginning, I said I would take my friends point of view, not my own.

The purpose of this was to see the responses. Some are pretty cool. Most are arguments not using scripture. That's the difficult part. Sure, John seems to be pretty clear. Plus, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are used in the same sentence. Peter has a sentence or two that seem to equate Jesus with God. The point is, most of the clarity has come from others, expounding on the scriptures. Whether it was from the Church or looking at the structure of our world. Not the scriptures directly. The same goes for those who say Jesus is not God. They "go beyond what is written."

Hey, maybe I’m going to take the words of Jesus too far, but here goes. "Do not hinder him, for there is no one who will perform a miracle in My name, and be able soon afterward to speak evil of Me. For he who is not against us is for us.” (Mark 9) JW do not speak ill of Jesus. They believe he is the Son of God. They believe He is great in his glory. They believe He is the means of salvation. Are they really against us? Are we really against them? JW are amazing servants of God and I bet many of you are too. Yes, the JW have things on wrong, but who doesn’t? I meet a lot of people whose salvation rests on Rom 10:9. I know others whose rest on Mk 16:16. Yet others, Eph 2:8-9, Rom 10:9, Mk 16:16, Jam 2:24 etc. Which one is right? I believe, the one that encompasses all the scriptures. That includes the ones about fits of rage and sexual immorality. That includes the ones about gentleness and patience. That includes the words of Jesus above. I’m not against you and we shouldn’t be against others who are trying to follow Christ, Including JW, who ask the question, “Should We Believe in the Trinity.”

 2004/4/22 21:53Profile
openairboy
Member



Joined: 2003/9/22
Posts: 85


 Re:

Quote:
Hey, maybe I’m going to take the words of Jesus too far, but here goes. "Do not hinder him, for there is no one who will perform a miracle in My name, and be able soon afterward to speak evil of Me. For he who is not against us is for us.” (Mark 9) JW do not speak ill of Jesus. They believe he is the Son of God. They believe He is great in his glory. They believe He is the means of salvation. Are they really against us? Are we really against them? JW are amazing servants of God and I bet many of you are too. Yes, the JW have things on wrong, but who doesn’t? I meet a lot of people whose salvation rests on Rom 10:9. I know others whose rest on Mk 16:16. Yet others, Eph 2:8-9, Rom 10:9, Mk 16:16, Jam 2:24 etc. Which one is right? I believe, the one that encompasses all the scriptures. That includes the ones about fits of rage and sexual immorality. That includes the ones about gentleness and patience. That includes the words of Jesus above. I’m not against you and we shouldn’t be against others who are trying to follow Christ, Including JW, who ask the question, “Should We Believe in the Trinity.”



The fact of the matter is, we have different Jesus'. The Orthodox confession that Jesus is Lord, kurios in the greek, which is the LXX equivalent of the OT translation of YHWH/kurios, so there is no truck between us. The JW's see us as blasphemers, because we say Jesus is God. It cuts to the heart of worship, the heart of salvation, and the heart of Christianity. If Jesus Christ is not the God-man, then we have no one to mediate between the Father and us (Job 9, especially v. 33). Much more could be set, but the JW's are not believers. They confess a different Jesus, a mere creation.

The Scriptures are pretty clear, the Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth. The JW's deny this, as well as the Mormons, Muslims, Christadelphians, and a whole host of heretical teachings that the Church has already dealt with.

The Scriptures do not exist in a vacuum. They are not "timeless" truths, but the historical revelation of God. So, the answer to, should we believe in the Trinity? The answer is Yes. It starts with the issue of the Jesus. If he isn't God, then he can't make atonement for sin and has no power to forgive and mediate. If he isn't man, then he can't die in our place and hasn't been made like us in every way.

The JW's are the modern version of the arians, which has been done with. We are against one another. You will think this is "hostile", and so be it. It's like Paul to the Galatians, "You foolish, Galatians, who has bewitched you? If anyone preaches another Gospel, be it US or an ANGEL from heaven [it doesn't matter what a person's appearance is, i.e. nice, kind, etc.] let them be accursed. I tell you again, if anyone preaches another Gospel let them be accursed."

 2004/4/22 22:42Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Quote:
crsschk:Just a spiritual point of view from a silly fisherman...
Are you really a fisherman.



:-) Well, I used to be an avid fisherman it's been awhile, definetly miss it.
Just a colloquialism


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Mike Balog

 2004/4/22 23:15Profile





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