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PreachParsly
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Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

Quote:
Regeneration is described as a "washing": Tit 3:5

Nowhere in scripture is it described as the reception of a new faculty (freewill) or the repairing of a broken faculty (freewill). Regeneration is not when the incapable become capable, at least I cannot draw that from any scripture.

But regeneration is a washing from sin, it is a new birth. And that is precisely what conversion is, a turning from sin, being born again.

If regeneration preceeding conversion, then there is a time period when there is a man who is regenerated but is not yet converted. But does the bible ever describe an regenerate man was unconverted? No. A man who is regenerated is a man who is converted, because regeneration and conversion are identical.



How does what you said justify [i]scripturally[/i] they are identical? We know you believe they are the same...

I can very well say that no where in scripture does it say conversion and regeneration are identical.


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Josh Parsley

 2007/7/12 12:37Profile
roaringlamb
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

I would encourage all to read their Bibles, and this article, before endorsing anything Finney teaches.

[url=http://www.graceonlinelibrary.org/etc/printer-friendly.asp?ID=405]The Legacy Of Charles Finney[/url]

Finney's teachings are nothing more than the heresy of Pelagius who said, "if I ought, I can." In other words, man can make himself holy by his own works, and be accepted by God for our own works. This tramples the work of Christ under foot. If Christ is not our only righteousness, then the Bible is in error. But if itis as the Bible declares, that Christ alone is our righteousness then Finney and his like are in error, and need not be listened to.

Of course if this came to our ears from a Buddhist, we would cast it aside as heresy, if a new age guru taught us this, we would rightly do the same. How then is it that a man who says he is a brother tells us this lie, and we swallow it hook, line, and sinker?

This teaching is exactly what produces man working to obtain salvation, which is what the Jews thought they could do, which is what Muslims do, and on and on. Man wants to be able to work to achieve salvation, or to have something to hold up to God to show Him that He must accept them because of their works.

The Gospel never teaches anything like this. We are born "children of wrath" until God intervenes in His grace, and imparting faith to us, for it is impossible for a natural man to understand spiritual things until he is given spiritual life. The Gospel of the Bible does not tell us, this do and you shall live, but rather this has been done for you, now believe.

As one who cares deeply for the souls of my brothers, I urge you to stay away from Finney, let not his teachings cloud your mind.

Grace and peace to you.


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patrick heaviside

 2007/7/12 13:04Profile
Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Edited

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
I would encourage all to read their Bibles...

Finney's teachings are nothing more than the heresy of Pelagius who said, "if I ought, I can."

Are you saying that we ought to read our bibles?

3John 1:8 We therefore [b]ought[/b] to receive such, that we might be fellow helpers to the truth.
1John 4:11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we [b]ought[/b] also to love one another.
1John 3:16 By this perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we [b]ought[/b] to lay down our lives for the brethren.
1John 2:6 He that says he abides in him [b]ought[/b] himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
2Peter 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons [b]ought[/b] you to be in all holy conduct and godliness,
James 4:15 For you [b]ought[/b] to say, If the Lord wills, we shall live, and do this, or that.
James 3:10 Out of the same mouth proceeds blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things [b]ought[/b] not so to be.

I could go on with these [b]oughts[/b] that we are able to do of our own volition.

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
The Gospel never teaches anything like this. We are born "children of wrath"

No where in the Bible says the we are "born children of wrath".
The Bible says that "we had our behavior in times past in the lusts of our flesh." This behavior is not in new-borns, it is developed as a behavior.

Quote:
for it is impossible for a natural man to understand spiritual things until he is given spiritual life.

It is not imposible, the natural man [b]is not receiving[/b] the things of the Spirit of God...Not because he is incapable, but that he [b]will not[/b] because he does not understand them. Howevre, that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God has showed it to them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.(Rom 1:19-20)
Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
The Gospel of the Bible does not tell us, this do and you shall live, but rather this has been done for you, now believe.


[b]Matthew 19:17[/b] [color=993300]And he said unto him, Why do you call me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: [b]But if you desire to enter into life, keep the commandments.[/b][/color]
The law is used to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.(Gal 3:24)
The Law is used to show us that we cannot consistently uphold the law and we are incapable to do it perfectly and that we need to be changed from within in order to accomplish the Law.

Finney taught Christ and Him crusified and being raised from the dead. Finney is our brother in Christ.
He based His theology on the character of God and upon reality.

 2007/7/12 13:59Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
No where in the Bible says the we are "born children of wrath".
The Bible says that "we had our behavior in times past in the lusts of our flesh." This behavior is not in new-borns, it is developed as a behavior.



Brother, what does this say
Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; [b]and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.[/b]

These verses are not speaking to unsaved people, but rather the Ephesian Christians. Paul is saying that they were like that, but not any more by the grace of God.

Also notice the little phrase "even as others" which points to the unsaved. We are all born into this state, but Someone changes us by giving us life.

Let me also ask you, do children suffer the effects of sin? Are they not prone to death, and sickness? now of course the answer is obvious, thus we conclude that it is in them already. They have original sin within, but it has not become actual sin.

Now I personally believe because of God's mercy and grace that children that die in infancy, and before "actual" sin, as wel as those with mental illnesses are among the elect, and thus are saved, as the Bible does not mention an age of accountability.

Quote:
true, howevre, that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God has showed it to them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.(Rom 1:19-20)



Now continue on with the rest of what Paul is saying-
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

Then right after your quote
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Men know there is a God, and supress that. But they are also unable to come to Him on their own merit, or free will. To throw out this fact changes the whole theology of redemption. For if indeed man can save himself by his own works, then Christ death is in vain, and the imputation of Christ's righteousness to His people is null and void.

The Bible is a story of God's redemptive history throughout His people. He saves, He makes covenant, He does not ask man's opinion, or seek man's approval of what He does. He is God.

Quote:
Matthew 19:17 And he said unto him, Why do you call me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: But if you desire to enter into life, keep the commandments.
The law is used to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.(Gal 3:24)
The Law is used to show us that we cannot consistently uphold the law and we are incapable to do it perfectly and that we need to be changed from within in order to accomplish the Law.



No, we need One to fulfill the Law perfectly in our behalf
Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Even if man could perfectly keep the Law in his renewed state, someone would have to keep it and put it to his accoutn for the breaking of the Law prior to conversion. This of course would require imputation of righteousness, or a putting to ones' account of something they did not do, or deserve. Finney believed this to be blasphemous, and taught against it.

This is contrary to the Scriptures. For the picture of substitutionary atonement is all trhough the Scriptures. In Abraham and Isaac, we see the ram dying in the place of Isaac, in the sacrificial stystem we see the animals dying in the stead of the sinners, and the sinful nation of Israel. To throw out this Doctrine alone is grounds to question a man, let alone to have him declare it heresy, and blasphemy.

If Christ did not die in your place, you are lost, and must atone for your own sins before God(good luck, and I hope you are a much better person than me). Sadly many beleive that they must add to the perfect atonement of Christ, but we are justified by faith alone, not by repentance, not by good works. But of course a genuine God given faith will produce repentance and good works, but those are not the means by which we have acceptance with God-
Rom 5:1 Therefore [b]being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand,[/b] and rejoice in hope of the glory of God

Notice Paul says we stand in this grace, not we fall out of it, and come back into it. One can fall from grace, but only by seeking to justify themselves before God with their own works, or keeping of the Law, that is the point Paul makes here-
Gal 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
Gal 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Gal 5:4 [b]Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.[/b]


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patrick heaviside

 2007/7/12 14:41Profile
Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:

Let me also ask you, do children suffer the effects of sin? Are they not prone to death, and sickness? now of course the answer is obvious, thus we conclude that it is in them already. They have original sin within, but it has not become actual sin.


Children suffer the effects of sin not because of their own sin, bbut becuse of the sin of the world.
In order to have sin within, one must have an inclination for it.

1) What is an infants nature? Inocent.
2) Is it natural for a newborn to rebel?
3) What law do they know in their hearts yet to rebel agains?
4) Can a babe just out of the womb have sinfull thoughts? Obsured.
5) What is their guilt since they are not even ignorant of a law, but unable to be put under a law?
6) Why would God, with such a great love for His creation, condemn it with Adam's sin when it has not yet sinned?
7) Furthermore, put a nature on creation for it to do naturaly what HE hates?

To put the indictment or a responsibility of sin that has not yet been committed and put a penalty or a price on the inocent is unjust.

If "Sin Nature" is true, it would pervert the justice of God and distort the love of God.
If "Sin Nature" is true, why would God conemn for what is natural?

Since God loves His creation so much, why would He impose a nature on it againt it's will and/or charge it with an indictment or a responsibility which they don't deserve and one of wich HE hates?

 2007/7/12 14:56Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
To put the indictment or a responsibility of sin that has not yet been committed and put a penalty or a price on the inocent is unjust.



Says who?
Where in the Scripture does it say this?

Quote:
If "Sin Nature" is true, it would pervert the justice of God and distort the love of God.



Not at all, the original creation(Adam) was perfect and without sin. We were in Adam when he sinned, as all have come from Adam. He bore children in his likeness(fallen), and thus here we are.

God is by no means unjust, for man at the instigation of the devil did forfeit his abilty to keep and obey what God commands, thus a spiritual death fell upon man as he is unable to keep the law. thus God says to Adam, "in the day you eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, you shall surely die." We understand that even the Hebrew idiom used there means, "dying you shal die" which points to one death leading to a greater death.

Quote:
Since God loves His creation so much, why would He impose a nature on it againt it's will and/or charge it with an indictment or a responsibility which they don't deserve and one of wich HE hates?



God did not impose the sin nature upon man. Man when he had free will did forfeit free will, and brought upon all his descendants the same spritual death. For reasons unknown to us, God allowed sin to come into the World. He did not have to, have you ever thought of that? God decreed before the foundation of the World that there would be a Saviour from sin as Christ is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the Earth, so in His providence, and sovereignty God allowed Adam to be tested in the Garden. Adam of course failed horribly, but praise God!!! Christ succeeded in the Garden when tempted to give in, Christ also triumphed in the wilderness temptation. Christ has woon back all that Adam lost, and much more.


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patrick heaviside

 2007/7/12 15:24Profile
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
Quote:
To put the indictment or a responsibility of sin that has not yet been committed and put a penalty or a price on the inocent is unjust.

Says who?
Where in the Scripture does it say this?

It is a fact of reality.
It is like putting the indictment of murder on some one who has not committed murder and having that person serve the time in prison for the crime that he has not done.

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote
Quote:
If "Sin Nature" is true, it would pervert the justice of God and distort the love of God.

Not at all, the original creation(Adam) was perfect and without sin. We were in Adam when he sinned, as all have come from Adam. He bore children in his likeness(fallen), and thus here we are.

that verse that says "Levi also, who receives tithes, paid tithes in Abraham." is not a doctinal verse.

[b]Hebrews 7:9-10[/b] [color=990000]And as I may say so , Levi also, who receives tithes, paid tithes in Abraham.
[b]:10[/b] For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchizedek met him.[/color]
Notice the first part of this verse, [b]one must not make a doctrine from idioms and hyperbole.[/b]

Furthermore, the verse that says "in Adam, all are dying"(1Co 15:22) That is not a heretity thing.
It is a spiritual death and does not say is not say "in Adam, all are dead", therefore, People are not born spiritualy dead.
One dies spiritualy from ones own sin once accountible.

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
God did not impose the sin nature upon man. Man when he had free will did forfeit free will, and brought upon all his descendants the same spritual death.

No where does it say that man forfeited free will.
Nor, does it say that Adam brought upon all his descendants spritual death. It says that Adam brought physical death.

 2007/7/12 19:10Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
It is a fact of reality.
It is like putting the indictment of murder on some one who has not committed murder and having that person serve the time in prison for the crime that he has not done.



Scripture please.

Also while on this topic of imputing crime to the innocent. Show me one man born innocent, for David declared, "in sin did my mother conceive me, and I was brought forth into iniquity."

What of Christ? He was made a curse for His people whom He died to redeem, but what crime or sin had He committed? He died in the place of the wicked, and the transgressors, by His stripes we are healed.

Quote:
that verse that says "Levi also, who receives tithes, paid tithes in Abraham." is not a doctinal verse.

Hebrews 7:9-10 And as I may say so , Levi also, who receives tithes, paid tithes in Abraham.
:10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchizedek met him.
Notice the first part of this verse, one must not make a doctrine from idioms and hyperbole.



I wasn't even thinking of that verse, but rather this one-
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, [b]as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:[/b]

Again man is born spiritually unable to please God, you cannot refute this. Jesus said,"he that commits sin is the servant of sin." One cannot get around the fact that unless God imparts spiritual life, thne man will be spiritually dead.

Do you take credit for your existance? Did you create yourself and give youself life? Or did God sovereignly choose your parents, the time and place of your birth, and also the time and place of your death? Or did you manage all this on your own?

Quote:
No where does it say that man forfeited free will.
Nor, does it say that Adam brought upon all his descendants spritual death. It says that Adam brought physical death.



Again, I must point you to this verse
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

It is safe to ask, what is the cause of physical death? Of course we would say sin. Then if indeed it is as you propose, and that we are not spiritually dead, then why a need to be re-born? Or re-created into the image of Christ? Why do the Scriptures tell us things like, you were dead, but now are made alive in Christ?

If man is spiritually alive at birth, then he does not ever need to repent, or be born again, and thus you have made Christ a fool for suggesting that man needs to be changed, and that the change can only be by God by His Spirit.

Show me from Scripture where it says that man prior to salvation is spiritually alive, and not a verse taken from what is meant for Christians who have already been made alive, to back up your statement.

Jesus made sure to point out that what was born flesh remains flesh, and that the flesh profits nothing. Not so though you say, for flesh is good and able to meet its Creator's demands. Your views do not need a Saviour, but only an instructor to teach you how to better your flesh, this is not Scriptural.


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patrick heaviside

 2007/7/12 20:48Profile
Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
Quote:
It is a fact of reality.
It is like putting the indictment of murder on some one who has not committed murder and having that person serve the time in prison for the crime that he has not done.

Scripture please.

[b]Eze 18:20[/b] [color=990000]The soul that sins, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.[/color]

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
[Show me one man born innocent

[b]Luke 1:15[/b] [color=990000]For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and [b]he shall be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother's womb.[/b][/color]
How would the Holy Spirit indwell the guilty?

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
for David declared, "in sin did my mother conceive me, and I was brought forth into iniquity."

Psa 51:5 is not to be taken literaly or as a doctrin.
If so,

The Bible says, "[color=990000]He can command the sun not to rise[/color]"([b]Job 9:7[/b])rather than, "He can command the earth to stop moving."

Make a doctrint that the sun moves and not the Earth. That God directed His command at the sun rather than the earth implies the sun moves and not the Earth.
"[color=990000]The sun rises and the sun sets; And hastening to its place it rises there again.[/color]" ([b]Eccles. 1:5[/b])
This verses that spoke of the "rising" and "setting" of the sun, "hastening to its place" so that it may "rise there again," is not so easy to explain away.
Why don't you make a doctrin that the sun moved daily around the earth and not the Earth rotataing?

Compare [b]Psalm 19:4-6[/b] "[color=990000]In the heavens He has placed a tent for the sun, which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber; it rejoices like a strong man to run its course, its rising from one end of the heavens, and its circuit to the other end of them.[/color]"

Surly you can't ignore these. GO make a doctrin that the sun moves around the Earth and not the Earth rotataing.
You have plenty of Scriptural backing: The sun stood still, but it don't say that the Earth stood still.

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
Again man is born spiritually unable to please God, you cannot refute this.

I do and I have.
You have not prooved that man is born spiritualy dead. Nor have you disprooved my proof of man being born spiritualy alive.

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
It is safe to ask, what is the cause of physical death? Of course we would say sin. Then if indeed it is as you propose, and that we are not spiritually dead, then why a need to be re-born?

The cause of physical death is Adam's sin, not our own.
We need to be re-born because all mankind will eventualy sin.
Our own sin(first accountable) causes spiritual death, not someone elses(Adam's) sin.

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
If man is spiritually alive at birth, then he does not ever need to repent, or be born again, and thus you have made Christ a fool for suggesting that man needs to be changed, and that the change can only be by God by His Spirit.

Of cours one would need to repent, or be born again, because all mankind will eventualy sin, even tough they are born innocent.

New borns do not need to be changed by christ because they are inocent of sin because they have not yet committed a sin.

New borns are incapable of acknowleging the need of being changed by christ, incapable of repenting, incapable of haveing fait(not refusal of faith)

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
Show me from Scripture where it says that man prior to salvation is spiritually alive, and not a verse taken from what is meant for Christians who have already been made alive, to back up your statement.

I will prove by deduction.

[b]1John 3:4[/b] [color=990000]sin is the transgression of the law.[/color]
What law do they know in their hearts yet to rebel against?

[b]Rom 14:23[/b] [color=990000]for whatever is not of faith is sin.[/color]
New borns are incapable of haveing faith. Refusal of having faith is the sin of Romans 14:23

[b]James 4:17[/b] [color=990000]Therefore to him that knows to do good, and does it not, to him it is sin.[/color]
What does a new born know?

[b]1John 5:17[/b] [color=990000]All unrighteousness is sin:[/color]
An infant?

 2007/7/12 23:34Profile
Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Sorry for hijacking this thred, let's get back on subject.

 2007/7/12 23:35Profile





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