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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Don't Preach On Hell If You Don't Preach The Law of God.

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jordanamo
Member



Joined: 2006/11/23
Posts: 397


 Re:

I agree with you Paul, one of the only times I've seen someone criticize Comfort's ministry on here. Said it better than I could. I have been continually saddened by the growing popularity of WOTM, and wish people had more discernment in this area.

Many street preachers I am afraid lack apostolic reality.. they preach from their own soul. Many of them (I speak from experience) think that because they're now saved, and know so much of the Bible and this and that, that they can preach the Gospel to dying sinners. After all, that's on your heart, you must! Even the Bible says this and that concerning it! But many fail to WAIT on the Lord, because there is little of man's glory in waiting on God... it's a suffering of an ultimate kind, that I struggle with continually.

Jesus waited till he was 30 to begin his ministry on earth. What do you think he was doing but.. waiting on God? Moses, 40 years. Paul, 3. It's not necessarily the length of time that matters, it's the fact that you wait upon Him, and continue to wait upon Him, without expecting anything.

 2007/7/4 12:56Profile









 Re:

The use of the Law in evangelism should not be confused with Wayofthemaster. Wayofthemaster is another discussion. Ray comfort didn't invent the schoolmaster. The Law is a part of God's nature.

Quote:
...I needed to hear, that I could just be forgiven ... I already knew I wasn't right with GOD. I needed "the goodness of GOD that leads to repentance." Had I been dealt the blow of the law first, I wouldn't have come neither...



Thank you for sharing that testimony. I agree with you, that sometimes people are already convinced of their sinfulness and are ready for the message of Grace. I've come across a number of people that I did not have to preach the law to, because God had already convinced this person of their sin. Such was the case for the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts chapter 8. It is interesting to note that the eunuch was reading Isaiah. Isaiah is a book where the first 40 chapters are filled with the law and Judgment to come for law breakers. God obviously had been convincing the eunuch of sin, righteousness, and judgment. This is a rare thing in California.

Pro 20:6 Most men will proclaim every one his own goodness: but a faithful man who can find?

I do have a question for you concerning God's goodnes and the Law of God. Is sharing God's nature with the sinner going to prevent the sinner from conversion? The deaf ears, the blind eyes, the carnal mind, the deceitful heart, and the darkened understanding is why the sinner will not convert. Also, what part of God's nature is void of goodness? God's Law is good. God's wrath is good. God's judgments are good. God's mercy is good. All the ways of the LORD are good. His ways are what lead us to repentance and his ways are good.

Psa 9:16 The LORD is known by the judgment which he executeth: the wicked is snared in the work of his own hands. Higgaion. Selah.

Pro 16:6 By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil.

Psa 119:120 My flesh trembleth for fear of thee; and I am afraid of thy judgments.

If the sinner doesn't want to hear about God's righteous judgment... then it reveals that there is enmity against God in their heart, and this needs to be exposed... if your going to ever understand mercy.

Quote:

I think that being led by the Spirit is a far greater method for reaching the lost than using the law; WOTM adherents' use of the law is often banal, cold and out of step with God. The law has sadly degenerated into yet another formulaic device, akin to a sinner's prayer, which, ironically, had its original purpose in refuting the latter. It is now guilty of the same!



The use of the Law in evangelism should not be considered another carnal method. It is the example that the bible teaches. For those who disagree... read the Prophets, read Romans 1-3. Or, I could give a list of examples in the book of Acts when they used the Law of God to teach sinners of the holiness of God (first before preaching mercy).

If you don't warn the wicked to turn from their wicked ways you are committing sin against God.

Eze 33:8 When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

You must show them what their sin is (in the sight of God) by the use of the Law.

Isa 58:1 Cry aloud, spare not, lift up thy voice like a trumpet, and shew my people their transgression, and the house of Jacob their sins.

Quote:

Many street preachers I am afraid lack apostolic reality.. they preach from their own soul. Many of them (I speak from experience) think that because they're now saved, and know so much of the Bible and this and that, that they can preach the Gospel to dying sinners. After all, that's on your heart, you must! Even the Bible says this and that concerning it! But many fail to WAIT on the Lord, because there is little of man's glory in waiting on God... it's a suffering of an ultimate kind, that I struggle with continually.

Jesus waited till he was 30 to begin his ministry on earth. What do you think he was doing but.. waiting on God? Moses, 40 years. Paul, 3. It's not necessarily the length of time that matters, it's the fact that you wait upon Him, and continue to wait upon Him, without expecting anything.



Waiting on God, weeping for souls, preaching with unction, and being led by the spirit is a must. If anyone is going to preach the kingdom of God and they lack these things... it doesn't matter how biblical there method is... It's going to be mixed with carnality. This was not the theme of this thread nor is the critique on wayofthemaster. The discussion was meant to be on hell-fire preaching without the use of the law is unreasonable to the conscience.

If someone uses the law or wayofthemaster, we should not assume the Spirit can't work through it. The question is, is it biblical or not and is the preacher a hypocrite or not. Let Micah 6:8 and Psalm 2:11-12 be the standard that every preacher should walk in.

I've used the wayofthemaster, and I've seen God birth godly sorrow in souls through it.

I've gone out witnessing with a brother who was saved through Rays's open air preaching.

If your going to critique wayofthemaster, perhaps you should start a new thread and state your problems with Ray's ministry, share what the scriptures say about it, and state your prayer request for Ray's ministry. I have no problem with that discussion. However, don't confuse it with the use of the Law in evangelism.

Again, Ray didn't invent the Schoolmaster, nor was he the first to discover the use of it in evangelism. I went out to dinner with a missionary from the Philippines (he's a miisionary to the USA) and he said that when he first heard "Hell's Best Kept Secret", it was nothing new to him. He had already been preaching law to the proud and grace to the humble.

Godly missionaries from all around the world have been preaching law to proud/grace to the humble before wayofthemaster ever came on the scene.

http://heartcrymissionary.com/
Here... I'll let you here Paul Washer's statement on the use of the Law in evangelism.

I encourage everyone to listen to the whole sermon. However, to add discussion to this thread... what do you think of Paul's statement at
46:00 minutes into the sermon?

He says this,
"...It's not good enough to preach on hell, and I'll tell you why... Instead of preaching on hell, you need to preach on the law. Everybody believes in hell, it's just no one believes they're going there. That's the purpose of the law. You use the law of God, you teach them about the holiness of God, so that sinners tremble! You work to proclaim God as God in all His glory, in all of His holiness; and work, strive, study, to be able to demonstrate the sinfulness of man and the sifulness of sin!..."
(The Glory of God) in Missions by Paul Washer
http://64.34.176.235/sermons/SID14503.mp3

http://gfa.org/
Also, K. P. Yohannon who is the Founder & President of Gospel for Asia missions...
In March of 2005 K. P. Yohannon flew Ray to India to speak at his Bible School graduation. He said, "I would highly recommend Ray Comfort and Living Waters Ministry to any church that is wanting to fulfill the Great Commission."

A fascinating account of the Law doing its work as schoolmaster appears in the testimony of David Brainerd. God mightily used the Commandments in the conversion of this soul, who, by the plan of providence, became one of the most dedicated missionaries of all time. See Jonathan Edwards, The Life and Diary of David Brainerd (Chicago: Moody Press, 1949) 64.

Quote:
I don't think to be in travail for souls is an easy thing.

The question is, are we in travail for souls?

Do we ask God to share just a bit from His burden, to see that this burden is not so easy, to feel a bit His heart for the lost?

And yes, there are sometimes methods, but there is no method in travail and no method of how the Spirit works in the Spirit filled soul, to reach the lost.

Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.



Let us not confuse the term methods with the teaching of Scripture. Scripture teaches the way that we should walk in concerning both these matters. (Soul travail and Evangelism) No, it's not easy for the flesh... it's impossible. However when we reckon ourselves dead and crucified with Christ are strength and might is of God. It is then that suffering becomes a joy and a rest.

Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Mat 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Jer 13:17 But if ye will not hear it, my soul shall weep in secret places for your pride; and mine eye shall weep sore, and run down with tears, because the LORD'S flock is carried away captive.

-Abraham

 2007/7/4 19:40
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
The use of the Law in evangelism should not be considered another carnal method.



Well, unfortunately, this is just what it has become in this age of men looking for quick-fix methods and surefire protocols. I think you should know that I use the law when I preach, but I use it under the dictates of the Spirit of God. Sometimes, I am clearly told [i]not[/i] to use the law on particular person. As men and women of God, we walk in the Spirit and not by dogma. By definition, anything done without the breath of the Holy Spirit has [i]carnality[/i] smeared all over it. Even if the procedure, in itself, is essentially a noble and true spiritual one.

Quote:
It is the example that the bible teaches. For those who disagree... read the Prophets, read Romans 1-3. Or, I could give a list of examples in the book of Acts when they used the Law of God to teach sinners of the holiness of God (first before preaching mercy).



Yes, and even more so, I can show you in the Bible [i]where men actually walked with God[/i] and didn't depend on cookie-cutter law-presentation formulas, rhetoric, cliches, methods. I wonder if Peter ever taught the younger converts, "Now, this is very important. When you talk to unbelievers, you must [i]always[/i] first take them through the 10 Commandments so they can get convicted before you mention anything about Yeshua. Preach Moses before Yeshua, otherwise you'll get a stillbirth!"

Now, I know justification for using the law is shown in scripture, but it was certainly never [i]exclusive[/i] - as this thread seems to indicate gospel presentations must always be. I don't recall Phillip ramming the law down the Ethiopian's throat, and there are plenty of other examples where an alternative to a hell-fire, law-preaching gospel presentation took place.

Let's be sensitive to the leading of the Spirit and walk before God in cleanliness and brokeness and humility. God will reveal what is needed, precisely, for that moment of time, and for that particular soul who will hear you. If you take time to learn of God, your Spirit-breathed word will be like a golden apple in settings of silver to that precious soul. And it may very well NOT be one of the 10 Commandments God uses! It's amazing what God can reveal to a yielded person, to a person who trusts in the leading and timing of the Spirit of God, instead of just automatically reciting the law and leading a person through the 10 Commandments for the umpteenth time by rote. God will begin to give you glimpes into His vast treasury of unsearchable resources, of his superbly wise ways that hover so far above man's paltry plans and predictable protocols and intellectual conceivings.

Brother Paul


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2007/7/4 20:07Profile









 Re: " the multitude"

Paul, as I read your post, I thought of the Beatitudes.

That was another time where Jesus was doing Open Air.

I typed multitude into the concordance and it looks like the 60 something references may be a good homework assignment of how the King of kings witnessed. I can't for the life of me think of a better "example" of how to deal with folks.
He was the Truth, the Life and The Way, so I figure He must have known the best way to lead to the Way, in the short ministry that He had when He was on earth.

I especially like His one on ones. The woman at the well ... His disciples ... Zacchias ... the Pharisees and so forth. To see the Holy Spirit pin point people where they are at, is what impresses me the most about His earthly Ministry.

Thank you.

 2007/7/4 21:11
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
I thought of the Beatitudes



Yes, Annie. Here were multitudes of lost people on top of the mountain, waiting for this carpenter's son to speak. The Spirit of the Lord was upon Him. And Jesus sat down and said:

"Blessed are the poor..."

He didn't start with the law. He started with grace on this recorded occasion! Doubtless there were Pharisees and Saducees in attendance; why didn't He start off by demolishing their pride? Wasn't he going for lost souls?

This teaches us that there is [i]never[/i] a set, formulaic way in the school of God. God is sovereign, and so are His ways. Zaccheus is another wonderful example. Why didn't Jesus terrorize him with the law? A street preacher today might see a man in a tree, and shout before a crowd, "Hey you up there! Do you consider yourself a good person?"

And he'll do it most likely to get a rise from the audience, to incite them, to draw a bigger crowd.

I am told of an occasion when Smith Wigglesworth was travelling by train, reading his New Testament. A man sitting beside him in the boxcar suddenly fell to his knees and said: "Sir! You convict me of sin!" Ah, this is precisely what I am talking about! God. How amazing it will be when we can learn to totally surrender and [i]experience[/i] God [i]as[/i] God. How wonderful to see the mortal musings we hold so dear at once dissolve like wax figurines inside a blast furnace!

Brother Paul


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2007/7/4 21:29Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Now, I know justification for using the law is shown in scripture, but it was certainly never exclusive - as this thread seems to indicate gospel presentations must always be



Dear Paul, the theme of this thread is not "Don't preach the gospel if you don't preach the law."

It is don't preach on hell if you don't preach the law.

Please, start are new thread if you want to discuss being led by the spirit in gospel preaching or if you want to discuss when the law should not be used.

You really seem disturbed about wayofthemaster. Maybe you should start a new thread. You're steering the discussion to a whole seperate topic. If this is your intention... please stop.

And your statements about when Jesus didn't use the law... seem to assume that I'm saying you have to start out with the law every time when you preach the gospel.

It has been stated before. Law to the proud grace to the humble. No where in scripture will you find Jesus or his servants giving a message that is void of the law to proud sinners. Find one. See if you can find one. I haven't found one yet.

We all start out in this world proud and depraved, so the message of the schoolmaster is the first one we all must hear. When we are trembling and humbled, God heals us with Grace.

Read the whole sermon on the mount, he got around to the proud. Also, he was preaching to Jews. Jews ate, drank, and slept the Law of God... and John the Baptist had been preaching the wisdom of God to them already.

Yes, we do need to be led by the spirit, and sometimes the Spirit of God will just lead us to preach a message on grace.

However, the Spirit of God doesn't go against the Word of God.

Jas 4:6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

My friend and brother, if you are going to add more discussion. The topic is on hell-fire preaching and doing it in a biblical manner.

Do you preach on hell? I hope you do. Do you use the law when you preach on hell? If you don't, then it's unreasonable and unbiblical and the Spirit has never breathed such an example any where in scripture. This is the topic. Do write back.

-Abraham

(I edited it for minor spell checks)

 2007/7/5 0:44
jordanamo
Member



Joined: 2006/11/23
Posts: 397


 Re:

Quote:
Maybe you should start a new thread. You're steering the discussion to a whole seperate topic. If this is your intention... please stop.


The topic you started is on preaching, we have not gone to a "separate topic." Why must you suppose to moderate what people say in reaction to your posts, especially when it's in a good spirit?

Quote:
Ah, this is precisely what I am talking about! God. How amazing it will be when we can learn to totally surrender and experience God as God. How wonderful to see the mortal musings we hold so dear at once dissolve like wax figurines inside a blast furnace!


It's funny Paul, I thought of you as the Finney-esque type that would, if I had encountered you open-air preaching, just preach hell/law to sinners, so what you've said is encouraging : )

Jesus said that he spoke nothing of his own authority, only of the Father. This should be how we conduct ourselves, especially if one is to preach. When one preaches, they should preach nothing that comes from their own soul/will/mind, but only which they receive from God... no eloquence, no "brilliance" should really be displayed in their preaching that would somehow rely on the human faculty, but just the Spirit. How we need preachers like that!

 2007/7/5 1:13Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Jas 4:6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, [b]God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.[/b]

My friend and brother, if you are going to add more discussion. The topic is on hell-fire preaching and doing it in a biblical manner.



Brother Abraham, I believe that 'is' what brother Paul is saying also.

The 'Biblical manner' is [b]always[/b] in The Spirit only.

How could his discussion be considered Un-biblical ?

I came just to comment that, I also have been taught, that as Paul mentioned above of S.W., that just our presence should have the Spirit of Christ, so that sinners, et all, are feeling what The LORD would have them to feel, individually, without us having to say much at all.

To the broken, they feel the drawing to Christ by His Love and healing-forgiveness.

To the rebellious non-Christian or Christian, we anger or convict.

To the religiously-proud non-Christian or Christian, we're thrown out and these were they who persecuted Jesus and Paul the most and who Jesus said will wind up killing us in the end.

Paul the Apostle tried to explain, that we are either in the flesh or we're walking in the Spirit and gave many examples to show that this is the same warfare that's gone on since Cain and Abel.

Quote:
You're steering the discussion to a whole separate topic. If this is your intention... please stop.



Brother, how can one stop when it's a Commandment, not a whole seperate topic, to only work/walk by His Spirit and not by the flesh - autonomously ?
It's either/or not both/and in this.

Souls are at stake, so in this of all Ministries, The Spirit is needed [b]most[/b], lest irreparable damage be done to the hearers, as Paul pointed out about Art and we could mention countless others.

You say "proud sinners" an awful lot, but Jesus dealt with "proud religious" folks in the hell-fire way, way far much more than the wretched sinners in that fashion.

It sounds more like you've been taught by books rather than the Scriptures alone, most especially the Gospels and how Jesus dealt with all. He saved the tough stuff for the "proud religious" not the sinners he met.

Isn't this thread open to all of us to express our views on Biblical witnessing ?

The only Biblical way is to be led by The Spirit of Christ. That's what Jesus and Paul taught.

Shalom in truth brother.
Annie


Edit just to add: James is written to Christians, not the unsaved. Thanks!

 2007/7/5 1:23









 Re:

Quote:
It sounds more like you've been taught by books rather than the Scriptures alone, most especially the Gospels and how Jesus dealt with all. He saved the tough stuff for the "proud religious" not the sinners he met.



I've only read about 69 or 70 books and 66 of them are in the Bible.

Quote:

The topic you started is on preaching, we have not gone to a "separate topic." Why must you suppose to moderate what people say in reaction to your posts, especially when it's in a good spirit?




My dear good-spirited brother, If you would like to change the topic on the thread, that's alright... To be specific, it was not on preaching. It's on preaching hell. You can change it to whatever you want though. I'm open to new discussion if you must. It just really throws people off when they click on this thread and find a discussion that is irrelevant to the topic. It helps the Forum community when they're searching for a topic to discuss.

Well, any way... I'm starting to wonder if maybe you can't answer my question on this topic. Only 2 people have stayed on the discussion. I'm beggining to wonder if it just doesn't apply to you, because you don't preach on hell. Maybe this is the reason why you haven't stayed on the thread's discussion. Maybe it's not.

Here's my question for you again. Must I keep going back to it until you answer. If you feel uncomfortable answering it, I won't ask anymore.


[size=large]Do you preach on hell? I hope you do. Do you use the law when you preach on hell? If you don't, then it's unreasonable and unbiblical and the Spirit has never breathed such an example any where in scripture. This is the topic, if any one want's to discuss it.[/size]

 2007/7/5 2:10
jordanamo
Member



Joined: 2006/11/23
Posts: 397


 Re:

I didn't answer your question directly because I had no response to it. I don't preach, but if I did I wouldn't preach unless the spirit was moving me to say something, or I would be IN the spirit, and I wouldn't use any formula (no matter how "biblical" they be) etc. I'd be so immersed in the Spirit and the Word, that these things such as "I need to preach hell with the law" would not come to my mind.

To really answer your question I would have to move the topic over to the sort of spirit one should be in when they preach, but that I've already discussed and you have dismissed as not being on topic.

 2007/7/5 2:29Profile





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