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Discussion Forum : General Topics : not for women only

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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Confusion

Clearly we live in an age of spiritual confusion and moral chaos. Trying to discern right from wrong anymore seems like walking through a house of mirrors. Perhaps this is why judgement must begin in the house of God. He must first shatter the labrynth of the skewed and fractured reflections we have built up in our convoluted hearts so that we once again can see straight ahead to make straight the path for others. How heavy this thread makes my heart for our dizzy Church. When the righteous cannot tell right from wrong, perhaps the land really is cursed.

This conversation causes me to pause cautiously concerning the light that I believe is in me. If experienced saints can be so off-balance on an issue of this importance...then all of us should take care. These days we need to hold fast and tight to the scriptures and measure our thoughts and actions by the bible's most simple and bold proclamations...without our learned guile or shrewdness.

There is something of a gasp of relief in this, in that you are better articulating that which has been something of a painful anguish that can cut across many varied and different discussions at times ...

It's the worlds thinking and it's logic which is in the simplest from, all those things spoken to it by the scriptures. In the complex reality of that system or rather the reason for it's complexity is that it is a world of it's own confusion. And it is creeping in everywhere it seems. The philosophies of man, of natural man and our spiritual understanding are in direct confrontation, or should be and I don't know if this is not endemic of where we find ourselves in this present hour, somewhere in the midst of trying to sort through it, pick out the embedded elements that are somewhat hidden or subtle in their borrowing of ... [i]our[/i] truth if I might put it so seemingly arrogantly.

Have mentioned before that so much of what we end up having to do is a great demolition project. It seems we might be better off starting all over again rather than doing so much needed remodeling, it just doesn't seem to be effective enough, patching and painting, fixing the bathroom when the roof shakes are so dried out to be in great fire danger ...

MC, you are so correct here. Had shelved something related to this as it applies to the upcoming embedding of another sort; These RF devices that have some of us, rightly concerned about the equating of it all to the system outlined in The Revelation of Jesus Christ to pronounce the title correctly. What I wanted to express in that was this same problem I believe we will be only more and more up against; More and more confusion even amongst our very selves, those of us clinging to the heart of the scriptures, our fellow travelers paradoxically fighting upstream in a downward spiraling world, those walking backwards on old paths ...

It seems already that we have trouble holding two or more thoughts simultaneously, in abeyance and will be continually in 'explanation' mode as to what we [b]do[/b] mean and what we [b]don't[/b] mean. It's that confused and contrived and without just spiritual fundamentals. To clarify that, I am thinking of how the world will be able to foster all the things we seem to believe will be forthcoming in the days ahead. A one world system of government, the rise of the anti-christ, the marking or number of the beast. If even the most shallow of Christians have some idea of all these things the obvious answer seems to be that nobody would be duped at all. The devil is far too crafty for such an overt and obvious display to suck in the unsuspecting. What then better and more characteristic of his wiles than what has always been the route of his travels; Confusion. Lies. And the best in the arsenal a whole lot of [i]our[/i] truth as we are containers of that embodiment by way of the Holy Spirit in us used as ammunition against us, "friendly fire". His word, twisted, clipped out of it's context ... [i]Has God said[/i]? [i]"Cast Yourself down from this ...[/i]". A great deal not being mentioned here as to a certain gullibility of many Christians, that which I am alluding to by way of holding more than one thought ... jumping to conclusions, getting carried away with notions and so forth.

It is going to take a whole different kind of courage to even confront the 'elect' as the Lord put it about not being deceived. We are going to have to reach down deep and find 'charitable' ways of confrontation, rebuking in anguish of heart which is true love for the Brethren and a sheer willingness to be greatly misunderstood. Times where the only way to get a serious point across is to be exceedingly harsh, not brash, but factual and somewhat spiritually in your face if I could put it in that fashion. Was not the Lord so? Are not the vast majority of speakers and messengers presented here so ... [i]other than[/i] not only the world but even all that which constitutes an ideal of that which is supposedly "Chrisitian"? Words, profound words have been stripped of their ultimate meanings. Love. Truth. Even our recently dearly departed brother expressed his great concern over just two of these;

[color=000099]"I cannot express in so many words, how profound my jealousy is for these two great words ‘prophetic’ and ‘apostolic’; they are the foundations of the church, and if they lose their meaning, their cogency, if they stand for something other than what God intends, then we have lost the game. If I could, I would say to these guys, “Listen, play your games with other language—‘Body of Christ, church growth, power evangelism’—go ahead, but don’t touch these sacred words; they’re not yours to defame and to employ.”

I think this is [i]the[/i] great issue of the hour, and I am jealous for other prophetic men to be watchmen on the wall and to be careful how these great words are understood and employed. To stand against these organizational, fraternal collectives of men who congratulate one another and call [i]that[/i] ‘being submitted.’ I was told in Singapore, by one of their American spokesmen, that I am out of relationship, and I am not truly submitted, and that is why I have the strange views of Israel that I do! But he did not even begin to touch the depth of the authenticity of what we know as a very real submittedness, they have it only in the organizational, mutually applauding and congratulatory framework, which is a deceit and a contradiction of the very words ‘prophetic’ and ‘apostolic’! There is something here of grave concern that we need to be aware of.[/color]

[url=]Art Katz Biographical Interview[/url]

A far better exegesis of this worldly understanding I believe is exemplified in [url=]Authentic Christianity[/url] just as well.

All this might seem 'off topic' to this particular issue in this post but I am seeing a certain deception creeping in amongst ourselves that keeps throwing up red flags.

Mike Balog

 2007/7/8 10:51Profile


This discussion started here ...

I gave my views. Also adding how I had an ectopic pregnancy when only saved less than one year.
I went to the E.R. on the Navy Base with intense pain.
They sent me home with pills for gas.
I went back again the next day and the Dr. said, "Since you already have an appointment with the OB/GYN Dept today, go on ahead there.
Within 20 minutes I was in surgery just on the heel of potentially dying and with no time to even think.
Neither baby nor I would have survived.

But having read enough on these other type "abortions" that are supposedly to save the mother .... they are so far in the minority, that it cannot be issued in here completely. There is much more behind this.

I have seen all of this add up to "euthanasia" in the final analysis of anyone who does not have the "quality of life", that some see is so necessary.

Working in Hospitals since I was 16, which was back in the 60's, even then, older folks were starved to death like Terri Shciavo.

I see ginnyrose as an expert on these things and thank her for her clarity.

The slippery slope is normally that "quality of life" issue and bio-ethics, where the world so vastly differs in world view than we.

The view of purging the earth of undesirables will continue on to "us".

All life is precious or it is not. That's a simple line to draw in the sand.

 2007/7/8 14:20

Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA


Neither baby nor I would have survived.

According to whom?


 2007/7/8 15:07Profile

 Re: not for women only

tj said:

God started that child’s heart beat and she doesn’t have the right to stop it.

God works in mysterious ways…when you let him.

The way the body develops in the womb, things like a heart beat and other functions are bound to start when they are ready, but, that does not mean the body is 'alive' as it will be if it begins to work properly outside the womb.

I think it would be respectful of you to Annie, if you would follow the link she put in this thread. There is more information in 'Bush to meet Pope' in News and Current Events.

 2007/7/8 15:48

 Re: not for women only


Doctors are bound by their professional training and code of practice, to always do their best for anyone who becomes their patient, without regard for that person's status on any count - enemy, color, gender, cause of illness... and so on. This is being undermined by many things in our day, but it is still required of doctors when a patient dies in their custody, to have the circumstances of that death reviewed by other competent doctors.

Where the management of a patient could have been better, such that the patient should not have died, the death is classified as 'avoidable'. It is to this I was referring.

 2007/7/8 15:52

 Re: not for women only

jordanamo said

when it should be up to God.

Hi Jordan,

God Himself has allowed situations to occur on earth where He has given the responsibility and the power to mankind to work out what can be done.

Naturally, the working conditions for making such decisions are very carefully scrutinised and regulated in the light of history and experience, especially when they involve the possibility of taking a life either by accident or design.

I agree with your complaint completely, but we cannot go back and rewrite the way pregnancies have ended in the past, at one stage in history with the loss of many a mother. We are now - because families hated losing their women in childbirth - trying to prevent some of those tragedies. This is why screening has been developed - to predict those which will end in a complicated, possibly fatal labour.

That some peoples in the world have access to modern surgery means many women survive, but with their reproductive system in a compromised condition, whereas in the past, if the baby could be be born normally, both would have died.

 2007/7/8 16:06

 Re: not for women only

Hello PaulWest, you asked

Should the midwife have saved Rachel and killed Benjamin?

This is not what I'm talking about.

I don't know how the midwife knew Rachel was having a son, except she prophesied. Also, she used her skill to determine that Rachel will live to deliver the boy.

Really, I'm trying to discuss those cases when it is certain that the woman will not survive labour, especially in the cases where this is because the baby will cause her death.

It is not unknown for a pregnant woman to die suddenly for reasons other than obstructed labour. In these cases, if she is near medical help, the baby can live if it is removed immediately.

 2007/7/8 16:14

 Re: not for women only

ginnyrose said:

... referring to females whose pregnancy would be life threatening. How can you determine this without modern technology at your disposal? If you have this at hand to make such a dubious evaluation, you will also have the means to help the woman through the pregnacy so that a 'termination' would not be "necessary."


I've been considering this double-edged sword myself, actually, because there will be relatively few (by % but, that does not mean the numbers will be small.... total numbers being small must be set against the whole childbearing population - not just per hundred or thousand) who can be confidently predicted early enough for a termination of pregnancy to be undertaken, and, you are right, the malformed babies who are detected, who used to cause obstructed labours can be extracted by caesarian section.

But, where the technology is not available to make an early diagnosis, midwives - and doctors if there are any - are faced with a strong possibility of obstructed labour. This can be predicted simply by abodominal palpation during pregnancy (in the commonest circumstances).

I am not here thinking of chromosomal abnormalities incompatible with life or length of life, or those who would be outside the range of 'normal' but, could draw breath and survive possibly for many years. I have a great deal of sympathy for Christians who choose not to take certain screening tests, [i]because[/i] they would not countenance a termination of pregnancy on certain findings, even if they would for others.

So, returning to the midwife who knows the baby will not deliver normally because it is itself abnormal, if one is not going to end the pregnancy somehow, that the woman can have a future opportunity to have normal babies (and care for any existing children), she must die in childbirth.

I see the belief that all termination of pregnancy is murder, restricts the options available to this woman's attendants.

 2007/7/8 16:35


by tjservant on 2007/7/8 15:07:42


Neither baby nor I would have survived.

According to whom? [end quote]

Hi TJ, the baby was about 6 weeks or more and fully attached to my falopian tube.

I had wished Science was to the point where they would have tried to place the baby somehow in my womb, but that to my knowledge is not and certainly was not a practice back in 1978.

The baby was about to burst the falopian tube thus ending it's own life and I would have hemorraged possibly to death and that is why I was whisked off to surgery so very quickly.

I hope you understand, I had been hoping to get pregnant very badly when this happened and they put me in the Maternity Ward after the surgery and it all but killed me to see the babies behind the Nursery window.

If the science were in place, to move the baby to the womb, that would have been my first choice.

I was also cautioned that because of the condition my other tube is in, that I think twice about getting pregnant again because the same could happen very easily.

I thank The LORD, HE had mercy on me and I never conceived again.

Bless GOD He's given me my one daughter. She's extremely pro-life too. PTL !

 2007/7/8 17:03

Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas


The way the body develops in the womb, things like a heart beat and other functions are bound to start when they are ready,[b] but, that does not mean the body is 'alive'[/b] as it will be if it begins to work properly outside the womb.

And this logic, my brethren, is the very mothership by which the wicked spirit of abortion is fed. The Satanic influence is already in the world, and is now trying to rise up here. Dorcas, why would you create a thread like this? I pray others use discernment...and deal with this shameful thread accordingly.

Paul Frederick West

 2007/7/8 18:40Profile

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