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Discussion Forum : General Topics : not for women only

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crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Notions

Am anticipating some backlash and as always there is this undercurrent of regret that must have been feeding Paul in his distress;

2Co 7:8 For though I made you sorry with a letter, I do not repent, though I did repent: for I perceive that the same epistle hath made you sorry, though it were but for a season.

2Co 7:12 Wherefore, though I wrote unto you, I did it not for his cause that had done the wrong, nor for his cause that suffered wrong, but that our care for you in the sight of God might appear unto you.

Could only pray that the middle verses be true as well, for the Lords sake. Would rather fend it off before hand by noting the separation of the person from the words. I am just weary of having to tolerate some nefarious idea that 'niceties' equates to charity and that real love is covered over by staying silent. It is the notions that have once again caused the alarm and the seemingly harshness of address ...

2Co 12:15 And I will very gladly spend and be spent for you; though the more abundantly I love you, the less I be loved.

2Co 12:16 But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you with guile.

2Co 12:17 Did I make a gain of you by any of them whom I sent unto you?

2Co 12:18 I desired Titus, and with him I sent a brother. Did Titus make a gain of you? walked we not in the same spirit? walked we not in the same steps?

2Co 12:19 Again, think ye that we excuse ourselves unto you? we speak before God in Christ: but we do all things, dearly beloved, for your edifying.

2Co 12:20 For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I would, and that I shall be found unto you such as ye would not: lest there be debates, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, swellings, tumults:


_________________
Mike Balog

 2007/7/7 14:45Profile









 Re: not for women only


ginnyrose,

Thank you for your reply.

I feel we are not quite talking about the same scenarios; I have heard of others who made the same choice your family made with your daughter.


Quote:
Am anticipating some backlash

I don't know why.

I know what I've already shared on open forum in other threads, and have deliberately shied away from being as graphic as others have been.

The reason I opened this thread was to let Forrest post her point about Jewish culture. She used the word 'law' and will answer, I'm sure, when she can.


Also on my mind is that there seems to be a view regularly expressed on SI that [u]all[/u] termination of pregnancy is a form of contraception. It is not.

For the record, there is NO WAY I accord to it on this account. But, I have no idea why it is believed by some that a Christian [i]should[/i] refuse to care for a woman in this situation.

The legal position on therapeutic abortion exists because many doctors do [i]not[/i] think it murder - which reasons I accord to, not because of my training but because of my Bible study - and so [i]I[/i] cannot countenance leaving women to die in those situations which are defined (medically) as 'avoidable', as [i]my[/i] belief in a God of life, health and compassion won't let me.

To believers that any therapeutic abortion is murder, even those terminations which set out to prevent a potentially fatal pregnancy or life-threatening labour, are all sin. Such a conclusion from such a premise, is undeniable.

Those doctors who also believe all termination of pregnancy is murder have freedom of conscience to opt out of such procedures.


But, it simply is not true that the statistical significance of negative outcomes would be as negligible as they currently appear, if we returned to the previous legal dispensation under which [u]no[/u] terminations - apparently - occurred.

Another concern I have had is borne out by the maternal death rate in other countries where there is little or no health care. I have not liked SI to offer an obstetrically ill-informed and insulated perspective on these issues.

 2007/7/7 17:35
tjservant
Member



Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 Re:

Quote:
To force a woman to give up her life to bear life is murder.



This is a choice that is not hers to make

I would remind her that God started that child’s heart beat and she doesn’t have the right to stop it.

God works in mysterious ways…when you let him.


_________________
TJ

 2007/7/7 18:08Profile
tjservant
Member



Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 Re:

Quote:
situations which are defined (medically) as 'avoidable'



Defined ‘avoidable’ by who?

The Great Physician?

Or some earth bound mortal?


_________________
TJ

 2007/7/7 18:13Profile
jordanamo
Member



Joined: 2006/11/23
Posts: 397


 Re:

Quote:
I have suggested that God did not leave us a choice between one murder or two, when the means to save at least one life is available.


Do the ends justify the means, as you here infer? Kill one life to save another? God is in control, should He not decide the fate of both, and not us? While it's a horrific thought of both the woman and the baby dying, or the woman dying alone, I just can't stand the thought of killing by our own intervention, when it should be up to God.

 2007/7/7 18:13Profile
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Should the midwife have saved Rachel and killed Benjamin? Did God not know Rachel would die? As Rachel was going through her hard, fatal labor pains, God recorded the midwife as saying:

"Thou shalt have this son also" (Gen. 36:17)

I fear you have erred greatly in this conviction of killing babies whose births jeopardize the lives of their mothers. I see the same principle at play with Peter trying to dissuade Jesus from going to Calvary; humanistically, it all seems noble, and it all makes sense, though, in actuality, it is satanic.

[i]"Thou shalt have this son also."[/i]

What a sad, ugly thread. How can the approval of destroying a child be entertained in the mind of Christ? In the mind of limited, wicked, humanistic man, this is certainly feasible, as we see here. Where do such ungodly, humanistic thoughts come from? Why even discuss this wickedness among mature saints?

Brother Paul


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2007/7/7 18:41Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7452
Mississippi

 Re:

Dorcas,

There is one question that has dogged me...you keep referring to females whose pregnancy would be life threatening. How can you determine this without modern technology at your disposal? If you have this at hand to make such a dubious evaluation, you will also have the means to help the woman through the pregnacy so that a 'termination' would not be "necessary."

But never mind about the natural way of things, murder is murder regardless how you want to justify it. And you know it, too, or else you would not have such fine tuned arguments in place to defend the procedure. I have had many abortion minded clients who told me ab is murder and you, who professes to be a Christian, will refute that? Your defense of the procedure generates more questions, like: have you ever had one? or have any of your grandchildren been aborted?

ginnyrose


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2007/7/7 22:47Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7452
Mississippi

 Re: not for women only

To all concerned persons on SI:

After I posted on this thread my displeasure with abortion, I got to wondering how knowledgeable people are about the abortion procedure. So I did a brief search online and here are some links I found with very good information.

http://www.abortiontv.com/Methods/themanyways.htm

http://www.lifedynamics.com/DeathCamps/Methods.cfm

http://www.lifesite.net/abortiontypes/

http://www.lifedynamics.com/Index.cfm

I would urge you to study them carefully and prayerfully and ask: is this what Jesus would have anyone do?

I have been told that when an abortionist enters the uterus with a currette, the baby will try to move away from this intruder. So a nurse will put pressure on the abdomen to steady the child so the doctor can more easily kill it. Does this sound like something Jesus would have his children participate in? When I first heard this it just about made me physically ill.

BTW, science is now telling us that a fetus has a heighten sense of pain. So not only are you killing it, the child suffers immense pain.

Godly?

ginnyrose


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2007/7/7 23:55Profile
UniqueWebRev
Member



Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re: not for women only

Quote:

dorcas wrote:

ginnyrose,

Thank you for your reply.

I feel we are not quite talking about the same scenarios;

The reason I opened this thread was to let Forrest post her point about Jewish culture. She used the word 'law' and will answer, I'm sure, when she can.




As I anticipated an emotional debate over the issue of abortion as murder, I took care to explain that there are cases in Jewish Law where the mother's life is considered more valuable than the child's if one or both of them must die if there is not an abortion.

I am speaking about a rarity, and not a constant.

I am presenting killing as a means of survival under Jewish Law, not murdering children for possible safety or convenience, or as a means of birth control.

If you are willing to defend your home, or your family, or your country, by killing another, which is allowed, and even mandated by God, you must also be willing to defend a woman against the rare situation in which the mother will not survive the birth if she has the child.

Abortion as we know it in America is not at issue.

We are talking the Law of Moses, as given by God, as a guide to the issue of self defense.

For details on Jewish treatment of abortion, please see:

[u]HTTP://judaism.about.com/library/3_askrabbi_o/bl_simmons_birthcontrolabortion.htm[/u]

Or Google Jewish Law,Abortion


Blessings,

Forrest


_________________
Forrest Anderson

 2007/7/8 2:08Profile
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

If there was an olympics for logic, Dorcas and Uniqueweb would have just won the gold medal for the long jump.

Quote:
I am presenting killing as a means of survival under Jewish Law

Amazing...this might be the first time I am actually relieved that Jesus expects Unless your righteousness exceeds that of the Pharisees... ;-)

I would not suppose to kill my young children today in self-defense, or self-preservation for that matter, and neither would I kill them when they were even younger for the same reason. Additionally, I find the use of the term 'self-defense' to be pitiful, given the fact that an unborn child is not attacking said 'self.' The little one may be in the middle of a stormy delimma, but certainly not the cause of it.

It is remarkable that we can agree on so many starting points and yet be so far away on the destination. It just goes to show how important it is to establish Godly precepts before committing to a vector. How vital is the adjustment of just a few degrees at the starting point.

Yet, today we seem far away from our starting point. Clearly we live in an age of spiritual confusion and moral chaos. Trying to discern right from wrong anymore seems like walking through a house of mirrors. Perhaps this is why judgement must begin in the house of God. He must first shatter the labrynth of the skewed and fractured reflections we have built up in our convoluted hearts so that we once again can see straight ahead to make straight the path for others. How heavy this thread makes my heart for our dizzy Church. When the righteous cannot tell right from wrong, perhaps the land really is cursed.

This conversation causes me to pause cautiously concerning the light that I believe is in me. If experienced saints can be so off-balance on an issue of this importance...then all of us should take care. These days we need to hold fast and tight to the scriptures and measure our thoughts and actions by the bible's most simple and bold proclamations...without our learned guile or shrewdness.

I care for the saints in this thread, and know their quality is beyond compare. They know I have learned more from them then they will ever from me. Yet we, God's people, are so weary from the spinning compasses of human reasoning and just so needful for God's direction. We look for relief in loopholes..but alas unless we accept Jesus' yoke alone, and not that of some obstetrician, our deceitful thoughts tend to run away with us, exausting us, and making our hearts unstable and double-minded. For this cause I must strongly object to all of this gnat straining and camel swallowing they would have for us.

Now I do admit that I am obstetricianally ill-informed. (spelling?) Yet, it strikes me as important the number of scriptures establishing that man's spirit and independant relationship to God begins (at least) in the womb.

"Did not He who made me in the womb make him, And the same one fashion us in the womb?...Yet Thou art He who didst bring me forth from the womb; Thou didst make me trust when upon my mother's breasts. Upon Thee I was cast from birth; Thou hast been my God from my mother's womb....For Thou didst form my inward parts; Thou didst weave me in my mother's womb....I am fearfully and wonderfully made;...My frame was not hidden from Thee, When I was made in secret,...Thus says the LORD who made you And formed you from the womb,...Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb...for the boy shall be a Nazirite to God from the womb to the day of his death...The LORD called Me from the womb; From the body of My mother He named Me....Yet Thou art He who didst bring me forth from the womb...Thou hast been my God from my mother's womb....Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you... he will be filled with the Holy Spirit, while yet in his mother's womb...when He who had set me apart, even from my mother's womb, and called me through His grace, was pleased...The wicked are estranged from the womb; These who speak lies go astray from birth.

These verses show that man has a seperate spirit even in the womb. Indeed, they establish that an unborn baby can be filled with the Holy Spirit. This refutes the idea that the unborn child is not a seperate person because of his or her biological dependency.

And not only are they given spirits, but perhaps they are appointed angels to watch out for them. "See that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you, that their angels in heaven continually behold the face of My Father who is in heaven" Is there good reason to suppose that unborn children are exempted from this blessing?

Okay..If having your opinion respectfully heard is enough then let it go at that. Thankfully, though you are not pursuasive on this point as you have been in many other topics!

I still love you both though! I just think, that on this sensitive issue, you have spent too much time in the hall of mirrors that modern and personal ethics have become.

Let me leave this subject by focusing on the hope that is in our Jesus. That abortion is displeasing to the Lord does not at all change the fact that there is forgiveness, and no condemnation for those who are in Him. Though I harped on needing spiritual and moral direction from the Lord...I ultimately recognize we need much more then that; we need his mercy and grace. How else could we dare confess the truth about our own conditions with a hopeful heart of faith?!

Blessings,

MC


_________________
Mike Compton

 2007/7/8 3:09Profile





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