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 Re: context when proof-texting.

Quote:
Unfortunately the word for foreknowledge does not have this in mind as it means "to forelove".



G4267
προγινώσκω
proginōskō
prog-in-oce'-ko
From G4253 and G1097; to know beforehand, that is, foresee: - foreknow (ordain), know (before)

G4267
προγινώσκω
proginōskō
Total KJV Occurrences: 6
before, 1
2Pe_3:17
foreknew, 1
Rom_11:2
foreknow, 1
Rom_8:29
foreordained, 1
1Pe_1:20
knew, 1
Act_26:5
know, 1
2Pe_3:17

The only "foreordained" is Christ!

Quote:
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
[b]John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.[/b]
(Notice man's will is not the reason they were made sons)



If you highlight the second verse and not the first, you would come up with that. Let's highlight the preceding verse ... which Precedes the action (which were "born-again" because of the "action" they took in vs. 12)in the second and see if you don't see the freewill in it.

[b]John 1:12 But as many as 'received him', 'to them' gave he power to become the sons of God, even 'to them that believe on his name':[/b]
John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

"Believe on His Name" --- "believe" is an present active participle making it continuous action so should be "are trusting or believing continuously".

The Mystery ~
Quote:
And also these verses-
Romans 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Romans 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.



Does not take away from the Foreknowledge I tried to explain above. He did not tell Moses, I "know" who has the "yes" or "no" on them from before their birth. But He does say, He "knows" those which are His, enough times, to set the foreknowledge in place as doctrine.

Quote:
Have you ever thought about what would happen if God never interevened? Man would not turn towards God, but would rather continue on in sin, worshipping and serving the creature rather than the Creator. But in his infinite mercy and grace He does intervene!!!



God revealed Himself to JOB somehow, before Abraham and Moses, and because of Job's LOVE for GOD, he was an obedient 'righteous' man.
Yes, GOD had to reveal Himself to Job, but there was something in Job that 'sought' the Lord.
He said, "I will be found of you, when you search/seek for Me with all your heart".
There are other verses on "seeking" or "seek" that shows clearly mans freewill and co-operation "with" The Holy Spirit.

Once again, both/and ... our freewill, His Foreknowledge, our respose, His forming Christ in us and our co-operation in Hungering and Thirsting for His righteousness, because we LOVE Him. He does not impose against our wills ... neither Salvation nor Sanctification.

No robots. NO man would want a wife that he's chosen against her will, that's Forced to be a wife to him against her will.
That is the beauty of The Mystery.
GOD's Love is not forced on anyone ... he allows the Bride to chose to Love Him on her own accord.
To say otherwise, would be to side with Satan in his accusations against God and Job in their discourses over Job up in Heaven.

Quote:
But in his infinite mercy and grace He does intervene!!! and He renews the heart of stone that is set against Him and His statutes and gives in its place a heart of flesh upon which those statutes are written.

The Gospel is the greatest news ever told or heard, it is not a club that can be used to pund people into subjection, but rather it is the means by which God grants life and liberty from sin and death through Christ alone.



It should be obvious that I would agree with your closing lines here.

I understand Reformed Theology, but I feel we would do better to see if God's Word cannot fill the gap (by solving this "mystery" that HE spoke of) ..... between Arminianism, Calvinism and the Antinomianism that's in the Church.

Thank you brother.
Sola Scriptura is Right On.
So are the other 4 that go with it, but hope to bring more Scripture to define the others.

His Love.
Annie

 2007/7/1 14:48









 Re: Pt. 3

Sola Scriptura(Scripture Alone) ~ A very Hardy Amen!
Sola Fide(Faith Alone) ~ by Grace through active faith ~ Amen!
Sola Gratia(Grace Alone) ~ all that comes from Him is His Grace.
Solus Christus(Christ Alone) ~ Christocentric ~ Amen!
Soli Deo Gloria(Glory To God Alone) ~ No flesh shall Glory in his presence. Amen!


We don't disagree on these brother.

I belong to a Reformed Theology Church, btw, and they still love me. :-D

 2007/7/1 15:12
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

I wanted to look at the root of proginosko which is ginosko

[i]G1097
γινώσκω
ginōskō
Thayer Definition:
1) to learn to know, come to know, get a knowledge of perceive, feel
1a) to become known
2) to know, understand, perceive, have knowledge of
2a) to understand
2b) to know
3) Jewish idiom for sexual intercourse between a man and a woman
4) to become acquainted with, to know[/i]

Either way, we must allow for God's pre-knowing of all things. If He does not know all things, then of course He is not omniscient, and then He is not the God of the Bible.

Quote:
The only "foreordained" is Christ!



Well, no because this verse which is in the list of references for your definition says to the contrary-
Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

I don't think God was foreordaining Christ to be conformed to the image of Christ.

But if we look at the verse prior to this, we see what Paul is getting at.
Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

First, if God is not in control of all events, then Paul could not say that all things are working together for good, but this is similar to Joseph's words to his brothers, "what you meant for evil, God meant for good."

Second, thngs are working for good to those who love Him, in contrast to those mentioned earlier who are at enmity through the carnal mind, so this rules out unsaved folks. We can only love God when our hearts are renewed by His Spirit.

Third, these are referred to as "the called" or "kletos" which is from the root "kaleo" from which we get "ekklesia" which is the word for church. It means "a called out group".

Now in Romans 8:30, Paul addresses another aspect of these ones who are called, and who are predistined(Romnas 8:29).

Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

See the order? Predestined, then called, called then justified, and lastly glorified. Those who were foreknown by God were predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ, and again we cannot base this upon a foreseen faith, as apart from the Spirit renewing our hearts, we would no have faith. This is not Calvinism, or Reformed, this is pure Bible, even Christ said, "no man can come to me unless the Father which has sent me draws him."

Look at Christ's words in John 10
John 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Notice what is being said. Why didn't they believe? Because they were not His sheep. Now look at what it does not say, "you do not believe therefore you are not my sheep."

God has given Christ an unknow number of people that He has fully redeemed, and they are being brought to faith by the Spirit even now. in this we see the beautiful work of the Trinity, the Father ordained to life those that would be saved, the Son fully paid the price fro their redemption, and the Spirit is applying that to them as He gives them faith.

Quote:
John 1:12 [b]But as many as 'received him', 'to them' gave he power to become the sons of God, even 'to them that believe on his name':[/b]
John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.



Now your point was not to emphasize verse 13, but the natural progression of this text points to an emphasis on verse 13. For in verse 12 we are told that as many as received Him was given power, but verse 13 tells us the means by which they could do this, or how they did this, and thus is the thrust of this section.

In a similar fashion look at John 3:16. Many say the main emphasis is on "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, [b]that whosoever"[/b], and then they begin to go many different routes. But what is it that the whosover must do? "Whosoever [b]beliveth in Him shall not perish..."[/b]

And of course no man can believe apart from a work of the Holy Spirit.


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/7/1 15:46Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Quote:
------------------------------

Annie wrote:
The only "foreordained" is Christ!
------------------------------
roaringlion wrote:

Well, no because this verse which is in the list of references for your definition says to the contrary-
Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.




Brother, I was referring to the list I posted above, because you had said "Foreknew" meant "fore-love".

This list was given for the different uses of the same Greek word for Foreknew .....


G4267
προγινώσκω
proginōskō
Total KJV Occurrences: 6
before, 1
2Pe_3:17
foreknew, 1
Rom_11:2
foreknow, 1
Rom_8:29
[b]foreordained, 1
1Pe_1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you[/b]
knew, 1
Act_26:5
know, 1
2Pe_3:17

The only "foreordained" in this list is Christ!

Quote:
First, if God is not in control of all events, then Paul could not say that all things are working together for good, but this is similar to Joseph's words to his brothers, "what you meant for evil, God meant for good."



Yes, the "all things working for the good" is all things working to comform us into the Image of Christ. Romans 8:28 is one sentence with vs. 29. They are "predestined" to "be conformed into the Image of GOD" because "they Love God and called according to His purpose" ... if they didn't Love God, they would not be predestined to be conformed into His Image. That's not what those verses are saying. It's not the people who are predestined, it is the act of GOD upon them "after" they come to Him in Love, answering the "call" by repentence. "Hearing and following of John 10" --- the sign of True Sheep are their "hearing and following" both again are present active participles, making them "continuously hearing and continuously following" which is supported in Rom 8 of those who are "walking in the Spirit" and not their flesh. Not obeying the flesh or after the flesh but after The Spirit so that they don't fulfill the desires of the fleshly nature but that of The Spirit of GOD, by continously hearing and continuously following the Spirit.
His use of the word "my sheep" does not prove predestination ... it proves foreknowledge again and the fact that He explains what are the characteristics of "his sheep/the elect" in that chpt as being those as said, who are continually hearing and following The Shepherd or The Lamb.

Just as these two show, there's a "co-operative" fellowship we have with GOD ...

Php 2:12,13 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Romans 8:30 is refering back to the same "predestinate" mentioned in 8:29 ,,,, Paul is expounding all the steps of Salvation and sanctification in those 3 verses.

He "calls" ... no sense in "calling" robots, who by some irresistable grace will answer with or without "calling". Calling is an invitation and/or as mentioned above "a proposal to marriage".
You don't propose to a woman if it's an "arranged marriage". She "has to" marry you.
So that would be GOD calling for the heck of it.
If your "Predestined", why give you the option to answer a call or not ? Freewill maybe ? - Yes!
The clincher once again to 28-30, in context, is verse 28 ... "to those who LOVE GOD." by choice.

"GOD has given Christ", as you mentioned -- those who HE did Foreknew would fulfill His Law of Love ... from O.T. to the New and by their own freewill. Not forced to love Him, by Him. That's not Love. He gains more GLORY, by His courtship of mankind, His proposal of marriage and allowing us to accept Him by freewill, then to make a GOD who would predestinate some to Heaven and some to HELL.

He IS LOVE, and His whole purpose to to win out in the end by voluntary LOVE. Period.
That is why Satan fights this purpose so very very much. By robbing man of his freewill and the "whosoever will" part.
GOD gives an open invitation and we Choose to accept His Hand in Marriage or not ... otherwise, scratch "Whosoever will" from the Bible.

Again, in John 3:16 "believeth" is another present active participle ... "continuously believing".

It "is" a work of the Holy Spirit But man has Freewill.

Choice, Freewill, God's Foreknowledge of 'who' will by their freewill choose.


Can't you see the both/and or co-operative relational marriage type union we have with Him ?


Is it all of GOD and none of us ... or all of us and none of God .... or both/and - as it should be in any Husband and wife covenantal Union ?




 2007/7/1 16:59









 Re: Case Not closed ...

"THAT" and "AFTER" .... Predestined to "that" and "after" ye believed.
What are the "thats" that we who believe are predestined TO ?

It does not say we are predestined (some to Heaven and some to Hell) - in Context - but that those who receive the call are predestined "to" be holy and without blame and for the Adoption and to be to HIS Praise and Glory .... we who heard and believed.

To those who accept His Call "the faithful" ....

Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and [b]to the faithful[/b] in Christ Jesus:
Eph 1:2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, [b]that[/b] we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Eph 1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:12 [b]that[/b] we should be to the praise of his glory, [b]who first trusted in Christ. 13 [u]In whom ye also trusted, "AFTER" that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also "[i]after that ye believed[/i][/u]", ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise[/b],
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Eph 1:15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints


The Faithful ...

Mat 24:45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
Mat 24:46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
Mat 24:47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
Mat 24:48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
Mat 24:49 And shall begin to smite his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
Mat 24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
Mat 24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


Mat 25:21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
Mat 25:22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
Mat 25:23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
Mat 25:24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art a hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strewed:
Mat 25:25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
Mat 25:26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strewed:
Mat 25:27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
Mat 25:28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
Mat 25:29 For unto everyone that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
Mat 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Col 1:2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Col 1:3 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,
Col 1:4 Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints.
Col 1:5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;
Col 1:6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth

Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days; be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations

Rev 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew thee out of my mouth.

Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.



Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honor to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

The Both/And of our Marriage to Christ, of Eph 5.

Eph 5:32 [b]This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.[/b]


HE is preparing His Bride and she is making herself ready & submitting to Him and stock piling oil for her lamp, because as in the Song of Solomon, she Loves Him.

 2007/7/1 17:58
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
He "calls" ... no sense in "calling" robots



I picked this little bit, because it has loads to do with what we are discussing.

It seems any time the issue of election comes up folks run to the "R" word. But let us reason here for moment.

All men are "robots" or as Scripture says "slaves". One is either a slave to righteousness, or a slave to sin. Jesus made it clear that those who were not with Him were against Him. So it is safe to say that man indeed is serving someone. Jesus even said to the Pharisees, "ye are of your father the devil, and his deeds you seek to do."

In order to understand the greatness of salvation, we must understand that man is not nuetral towards God at all, there is no grey area in which man dwells in which he may freely choose at any time who to follow. Man is enslaved to his will, thus the deeds of his will he will do. It is true that men make decisions every day, but their choices are dictated by the heart, and if the heart is ruled by sin, then sin shall be its master until another is put in sin's place.

Now when a soul is regenerated, God by His Spirit works in the heart to change its desires so that the heart once opposed to anything godly now wishes to please God. The heart that once held Christ as nothing, now sees Him as everything, and willingly this soul is repentant.

There is never any disservice to man's will at all. God either lets man have his natural will, or He renews their heart so that their will is changed willingly. Too many in our day have placed faith as the means of re-birth, whereas Scripture teaches faith as the result of re-birth. This alone causes many of the problems in the discussions we have here, as one group attributes the new birth to man cooperating with God, while I and a few others maintain the Scriptural view that the new birth must be wholly from God in His sovereign choice according to His pleasure.

By the way, I am enjoying this talk, and may the Lord bless you and keep you :-D


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/7/1 18:02Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
HE is preparing His Bride



And to this I would say, "AMEN!!!", but we must realize that the Groom is the only One who can lift the veil of His bride, and thus you can see how only those in His bride will have the veil lifted.


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/7/1 18:06Profile









 Re:

Thank you brother for your kind words. Much appreciated and glad we 'can' talk. Thank GOD for that Freedom.

Quote:
All men are "robots" or as Scripture says "slaves". One is either a slave to righteousness, or a slave to sin. Jesus made it clear that those who were not with Him were against Him. So it is safe to say that man indeed is serving someone. Jesus even said to the Pharisees, "ye are of your father the devil, and his deeds you seek to do."

In order to understand the greatness of salvation, we must understand that man is not nuetral towards God at all, there is no grey area in which man dwells in which he may freely choose at any time who to follow. Man is enslaved to his will, thus the deeds of his will he will do. It is true that men make decisions every day, but their choices are dictated by the heart, and if the heart is ruled by sin, then sin shall be its master until another is put in sin's place.



I'm sorry brother, but I see this whole thing as a big contrdiction. Not intending offense neither.

But, if men have no freewill --- then how will they be Judged by GOD for their choices/decisions or for choosing to reject Christ ?


You go on to say, "But when a man is regenerated ..... " .......... BUT HOW does he become regenerated if not by "choosing" Christ and the plan of Salvation ?

You answered that by saying that he "willingly this soul is repentant."
That's Choosing, as in Freewill.

Then at the bottom paragragh you say

Quote:
This alone causes many of the problems in the discussions we have here, as one group attributes the new birth to man cooperating with God, while I and a few others maintain the Scriptural view that the new birth must be wholly from God in His sovereign choice according to His pleasure.



Which just undid again this other quote ..

Quote:
The heart that once held Christ as nothing, now sees Him as everything, and [b]willingly[/b] this soul is repentant.




I agree with every Scripture on the OSAS thread, but they are proof-texted to only GOD's part of this equation and nothing of our obligation to obey, and all the "if you wills or won'ts" .... hundreds of verses left off intentionally.

The Elect "are" Eternally Secure -- our difference is in the definition of the Elect, as I can not see Predestination in the Word.

Wherever it is used or "chosen" is used, it shows what we are predestined 'to' or chosen 'to' IF and After we believe and follow through Love and faith.

My main reason for even posting today is to show that these are the extremes of either end of Armenianism and Calvinism.

I know with all of my heart, GOD's Word is in the middle of those two ... that is why I can fellowship with either .... unless by their OSAS belief, they've fallen into Antinomianism or by their Armenianism have become the legalists that Paul contends with through-out.


Freewill Love for GOD, as in a healthy Biblical marriage relationship, is the target here for me and nothing more, nothing less.

Love in Him brother.
Annie

 2007/7/1 18:27
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Well, may our God guide us in His word. But now you have brought up the Armenians?

What do you have against the people of Armenia?

(I know what you mean, just wanted to bring a little laughter as it is good medicine :-P )


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/7/1 18:43Profile









 Re:

Thank you brother. I love when we can leave a discussion this way. Neither of us trying to force our views, just give them and love each other at the end.

Praise GOD and I can take all the jokes I can get btw. :-D

Thanks again brother. Now you know why I can be happy in my Reformed Theology Church, even if I ain't reformed --- in either sense of that word. :-? ha. Like I've said, look at all the great authors here, both Reformed and non-reformed and we all seem to love both. Amen!
NEAT!

See ya when He comes or sooner.
Annie

 2007/7/1 20:29





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