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 Hard time with holiness

I've been pondering a lot about why many are against holiness teachings. Obviously, it is not their Christian experience. So then I started wondering, why isn't holiness their Christian experience?

- Jesus said that if we loved Him we would keep His commandments

- Paul repeatedly said that love is the fullfillment of the whole moral law

I think the key to holiness is simply loving Jesus. If someone loves Jesus, they will obey Jesus. That's what Jesus said. That is the essence of holiness teaching. Falling in love with, and staying in love with Jesus Christ.

And that love fullfills the law, it doesn't break the law. But our eyes must be upon Jesus. Our hearts must be in love with Jesus.

And I think that is why the Church has so much of a hard time with holiness, and why they break God's commandments, because they don't love Jesus. I don't see any other explaination. If those who love Jesus keep His commandments, then those who don't keep His commandments must not love Him.

 2007/7/1 7:46









 Re: Hard time with holiness

I wanted to share this too, it helps to get to the root of the issue.

Someone elsehwere said:

Quote:
I agree completely. However, many would deny this lack of love to the Lord. They would talk about how much time they spend praying, praising, worshiping, etc.




I think that's the problem. People equate loving Jesus with doing stuff. But doing stuff can be done without loving Jesus! We must first love Jesus, in our hearts, and then we will inevitably do outward things that show that love.

But God is interested in the heart. Love is of the heart. Holiness is of the heart. We must love God inwardly, and then we will obey God outwardly. But many "obey" God outwardly, when they have no love for God inwardly!

I was listening to a Winkie Pratney sermon on this. He described the difference by saying that false believers do these things because they HAVE to, true believers do these things because they WANT to.

And that is the difference, whether or not God has your heart, whether or not your heart is full of love for God and others.

 2007/7/1 8:35









 Re:

Amen to to both posts, Laz. You might want to review my last few posts, ala Chambers, on the OSAS thread. See if they fit into what you are seeing.

In Jesus,

Orm


[b]God first

Put God First in Trust.

"[i]Jesus did not commit Himself unto them, . . . for He knew what was in man."[/b][/i] John 2:24-25.

Our Lord trusted no man; yet He was never suspicious, never bitter, never in despair about any man because He put God first in trust; He trusted absolutely in what God’s grace could do for any man. If I put my trust in human beings first, I will end in despairing of everyone; I will become bitter, because I have insisted on man being what no man ever can be—absolutely right. Never trust anything but the grace of God in yourself or in anyone else.

Put God’s Needs First. Lo, I come to do Thy will, O God. Hebrews 10:9.
A man’s obedience is to what he sees to be a need; Our Lord’s obedience was to the will of His Father. The cry to-day is—‘We must get some work to do; the heathen are dying without God; we must go and tell them of Him.’ We have to see first of all that God’s needs in us personally are being met. “Tarry ye until . . . .” The purpose of this College is to get us rightly related to the needs of God. When God’s needs in us have been met, then He will open the way for us to realize His needs elsewhere.

Put God’s Trust First. And whoso receiveth one such little child in My name, receiveth Me. Matthew 18:5.
God’s trust is that He gives me Himself as a babe. God expects my personal life to be a ‘Bethlehem.’ Am I allowing my natural life to be slowly transfigured by the indwelling life of the Son of God? God’s ultimate purpose is that His Son might be manifested in my mortal flesh.

Chambers, Oswald: My Utmost for His Highest : Selections for the Year. Grand Rapids, MI : Discovery House Publishers, 1993, c1935, S. May 31

 2007/7/1 8:42
rowdy2
Member



Joined: 2007/1/21
Posts: 528
Southern USA

 Re: Hard time with holiness

There is a falling away and our old spirit [Spirit of Antichrist] has been revealed and defeated by God's Holy Law, and our hearts broken, humbled and contrite and our earthly wisdom is become an offence unto us, we surrender to God's will and His wisdom. Christ Jesus comes in spirit to us that believes his doctrine and acquaint us with God’s righteousness, we that rest on his sacrifice and obey His doctrine.

We are under His Dominion we no longer look for Jesus a mortal man, or a babe in a manger. We don’t expect Him to lay down His Glory again and return in the flesh as a man, no, no, He returns in all the glory of God’s majesty, and His Holiness calls us unto the heavenly or spiritual realm, Our Sabbath is in Christ Jesus the place were we are preserved safe from all harm in light and we live in peace and study war no more. We only lose our peace when we leave our Sabbath Christ Jesus and sojourn in the world.
There is a refuge on Mount Zion for us that stands out of the water of earth into the water that Jesus gives to them that thirst after righteousness.. When we look at the cross and cry out “Woe is me, and see our sinful condition and surrender in true repentance” then Christ Jesus comes to us. We are anointed with all the protection and rights of a child of the kingdom of God and have angels minister unto us. But we must not look back at the world for comfort or riches.

We Christians don’t know the Jesus that taught the law of sacrifice on earth as the son of man to the Jews They only had to believe God that Jesus was the Messiah.

We believe God was in the body of Jesus reconciling the world and that the Risen Glorified Christ is The Son of God and that He teaches grace in Paradise daily and we are wed in one spirit to Him. We follow instructions and seek inside ourselves for His Kingdom and become strangers to the uncleanness that we live in the mist of. We have begun our eternal walk with Christ Jesus and the things on earth are growing dimmer and dimmer. Like the two disciples on the road to Emmaus, we pray that as we walk with Him, it is our prayer that He would open our understanding, that we might understand the scriptures because we seek to know Him more our heart burn within us, while he talkes with us by the way, and while he opens to us the scriptures. We too ask Him to tarry with us, dine, break bread and share it with us. Come Lord Jesus, come in the power and glory as the only risen glorified Son of God. Praise His holy name.

Worthy, Worthy, is He who comes in the name of God. He lives, praise God our King and thank you for my salvation...

I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him and there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and His kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. Daniel 7: 13-14 KJV


Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us, to give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace. Luke 1: 78-79 KJV

Eddie


_________________
Eddie

 2007/7/1 10:30Profile
Forevidence
Member



Joined: 2004/7/29
Posts: 711
Riverside

 Re:

Quote:
I wanted to share this too, it helps to get to the root of the issue.

Someone elsehwere said:

Quote:
I agree completely. However, many would deny this lack of love to the Lord. They would talk about how much time they spend praying, praising, worshiping, etc.




I think that's the problem. People equate loving Jesus with doing stuff. But doing stuff can be done without loving Jesus! We must first love Jesus, in our hearts, and then we will inevitably do outward things that show that love.

But God is interested in the heart. Love is of the heart. Holiness is of the heart. We must love God inwardly, and then we will obey God outwardly. But many "obey" God outwardly, when they have no love for God inwardly!

I was listening to a Winkie Pratney sermon on this. He described the difference by saying that false believers do these things because they HAVE to, true believers do these things because they WANT to.

And that is the difference, whether or not God has your heart, whether or not your heart is full of love for God and others. God requires heart obedience!



I agree brother, they forget that the scriptures teach we are perfected in love...

Love toward God

Love toward the Brethren

Love towards are enemies.

If we have received the everlasting love of God, which has been shed abroad the Holy Ghost in our hearts, we should never ever shut up our bowels of love to anyone.

1Jn 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
1Jn 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
1Jn 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.

I preached a sermon on this...[url=http://www.consuming-fire.us/modules.php?name=Downloads&op=getit&lid=283] "Perfect Love"[/url]

I preached this message after returning to the Fellowship from being out for a whole month doing itinerant ministry throughout the nation. It was a needed word for those within our sphere of influence as well as for all those who are seeking the holiness. Remember that love is the bond of perfection!


_________________
Giancarlo

 2007/7/1 12:30Profile









 Re: Hard time with holiness

Your going to need something more than your love for God in order for you to not throw in the towel. It's His love for you that will keep you.

Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us, and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

 2007/7/1 12:43
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re: Hard time with holiness

Holiness is not the experience of many, because they firstly do not understand the difference between justification, and sanctification. Thus they blur the two, and equate them when they are two completely different things.

When one truly understands justification by faith alone, and sees Christ and His great work of removing the enmity between the individual and God, the adoption of the soul etc., then sanctification becomes such a joyous thing.

You see too many teach that we must be holy to earn favour with God, nothing could be further from the truth. We should be holy because we have favour with God, and He has given us life. Too many equate Law and Gospel, and do not differentiate between the two. However if you are earning your way into Heaven by your obedience you are under Law, and must fulfill ALL it commands, and you are fallen from grace. If though you are under the Gospel, the commands are not difficult as you have life to carry them out, and there is a Perfect One who mediates for you bfefore the Throne of God. Since He never changes, if we are truly His, then neither does our standing with Him.

Here is a question for all who are pushing this holiness produced from mans' efforts, do you ever have straying thoughts? Do you ever waste time(keep in mind that by the law, any moment spent without a thought of God is a waste)? So you who seek to be justified by the law, or your own works, and base your acceptance with God upon your obedience or disobedience, how are you doing in this? Seriously, does one sin negate Heaven for you, and thus put you in danger of being lost? That is not the Gospel of the Bible!

Consider God's dealings with Israel, how He made a Covenant with them, and because of the Covenant he never cast them off. We who have been regenerated, are in a Covenant that is so much greater than that one, and is predicated upon Christ's obedience for His people, His payment of our debt for sin, and His mediation before the Throne, it has very little to do with us actually, but much to do with Him.

Now would God establish a Covenant and not keep it? God forbid! He is perfect, and cannot lie.

Brethren I am troubled because many of you have fallen from the simplicity and truth of Christ, and are trying for a righteousness from your own works, and some are even boasting of how righteous they are even before unbelievers! But who made you to differ? and if you did receive something, why do you boast? There is only one righteousness God will accept, and that is the Righteous One who is Christ!!! Make much of Him brethren, we love Him, because He first loved us!


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/7/1 12:53Profile









 Re: Can we bridge the gap ?

My heart's really grieving over these discussions.

The two extremes that are tearing us apart.

On the OSAS thread, I see only half the Word used and on the other side of the issue, have seen a few cases of verses used or comments made that take away from "walking in the spirit" Rom 8 (missing on both sides) and taking some sort of credit for one's own holiness.

WHY can't we see the Both/And of apologetics ?

Those He Did 'FOREKNOW' He did predestinate to be conformed into the IMAGE OF HIS SON.

Was happy to see someone else saying that - That is why we were created, to come into His exact Image and that is the Mark we are striving for.
Not just the cesstation of outward or obvious sin, but to be like our Firstborn.

The only example I can give is - In His foreknowledge - Before creation - HE foresaw or foreknew 'who' would Love the Lord their GOD with all the heart, mind, soul and strength and not depart from HIM. Or "divorse Him".

They are those who are predestined to come into His Image, both by choice and also by His Spirit.

YES, it IS 100% a LOVE factor, but a Love by "Choice".

Those who HE did 'Foreknow' would 'want' to be "married" to Him and submit as a "wife" till the death - are The Elect.

The promises given time and time again on the OSAS thread ... those TONS of Scriptures DO apply to those Foreknown Elect ... but the verses that speak to our responsibility to our Husband and all the commands etc are being left out.

GOD Foreknew those who "would obey Him" by Freewill... so those promises apply to them.

My flimsy example is ... suppose you go to a Christian College ... and somehow GOD gives you the ability to see "who" will be your friend and who will turn against you ... by allowing you to see a mark on them.
Let's just say He put a "yes" on the ones who will be your friend and a big "no" on those who would turn against you ... as in, the "no" folks are not HIS people and are charlatans that will hurt many true Christians at that Christian College and afterward, through-out their lives.

Why in your right mind would you look desperately for the "no-folks" to fellowship with ? God has already gave you the way to foreknow their 'ultimate' decision in life toward Him and those who belong to Him.

Same thing if he showed which of the opposite sex would be a friend to you or hurt you and we can go as far to narrow it down to ... If HE put the YES on your future wife on the campus ... would you date a bunch of others with a "no" on them ?

THAT is how I see God's Foreknowledge and those whom He Foreknew would be His Bride - from before creation - are those who HE gives His all to, as any Good Biblical Husband would.

But all are given free will ... so none can have excuse that they were not "chosen".

The both/and is the most important principle being left out in the extremes of both sides.

He did the "doing" first - in Deut He gave the Command, to love the Lord with all your heart, mind, soul & strength and the people CHOSE from there out - then The Cross and then we "respond" to this marriage proposal and then He continues to "do in us" and we continue to respond with "doing as HE would wish" and on it goes until we die or HE comes ..... just as in a HEALTHY Marriage and it's Vows.
It's not a one sided Marriage, with just Him doing everything and doing all. What kind of Marriage would that be ... it would contradict ALL He's ever said from O.T. to N.T. about the Marriage Covenant.

It's not all one sided as I'm seeing on the close to 50 pages on another thread and it's not all of our doing as I see now and then on the other side.

It's the PERFECT MARRIAGE. A 100% Giving from both the wife and the Husband.

It's been that way since the Creation.

No robots, no mail order brides, but the perfect wife because she Loves Her Perfect Husband and The Perfect Husband taking on the role described in Eph. 5. The "Mystery".


I'll try with GOD's help to perfect this thought 'if need be'. But I've done my best to just unload the Love burden here.
Thanks!

 2007/7/1 13:54









 roaringlamb

Quote:
Brethren I am troubled because many of you have fallen from the simplicity and truth of Christ, and are trying for a righteousness from your own works, and some are even boasting of how righteous they are even before unbelievers!



a good word.

 2007/7/1 14:09
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
THAT is how I see God's Foreknowledge and those whom He Foreknew would be His Bride - from before creation - are those who HE gives His all to, as any Good Biblical Husband would.



Unfortunately the word for foreknowledge does not have this in mind as it means "to forelove". There is nothing in man that deserves to be loved, but rather it all comes from God's grace to fulfill His pleasure. To say that He foresees those who will believe, and therefore chooses them, is to make foreseen faith the reason for election, which is contrary to these verses-
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
John 1:13 [b]Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.[/b]
(Notice man's will is not the reason they were made sons)

And also these verses-
Romans 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Romans 9:16 [b]So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.[/b]

If we truly understood our sinfulness, we would rejoice that He loved us first, as He never would have loved after, and we would understand that man cannot be elected because of foreseen faith, as man would not have faith unless first regenerated.

Have you ever thought about what would happen if God never interevened? Man would not turn towards God, but would rather continue on in sin, worshipping and serving the creature rather than the Creator. But in his infinite mercy and grace He does intervene!!! and He renews the heart of stone that is set against Him and His statutes and gives in its place a heart of flesh upon which those statutes are written.

The Gospel is the greatest news ever told or heard, it is not a club that can be used to pund people into subjection, but rather it is the means by which God grants life and liberty from sin and death through Christ alone.


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/7/1 14:17Profile





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