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running2win
Member



Joined: 2007/5/15
Posts: 231
Bowmansville Penssylvania USA

 Re:

Quote:
All baptist that are saved are baptized with the Holy Ghost.


Brother, I used to believe that when one was born-again that they were filled with the Holy Spirit. I believed that because that is the belief that is held to in the churches with which I am most closely affiliated. (That only means the church that I go to and it's affiliates. I personally am at home anywhere that the people love the Lord and lift up Jesus Christ. I have no time for denominational loyalty.) Well, I started wondering what it was that made the difference in the lives of men like the Wesleys, and Whitefield, and Moody and I discovered that they had all been baptized with the Holy Ghost [i]aside[/i] from being born-again. Once I learned to take off the filter of my preconceived ideas I learned that there is such an experience. There's no scriptural way to back up the idea that every born-again believer is filled with the Spirit. Study it out. You'll see it. Look at Acts, look at history. It's everywhere. What God intended for the church in Acts He intends for His church today.


_________________
Jeff Mollman

 2007/7/21 13:40Profile
Blunt
Member



Joined: 2007/3/14
Posts: 50


 Re: Are all Speakers on SI Baptist?

They are really Bapticostals!
Secret Bible loving pentecostals infultrating the Fundimental evangelical denomination's "Backbone" Denomination.
See Chuck Smith and most Calvary Chapel's for you preference Bro!

 2007/7/21 14:04Profile









 Re:

I just want to make it very clear that I am not picking on the dear Baptists. I was merely using that denominational group for all groups that don't believe in the baptism in the holy Spirit. I could have made a list of them, but I was hoping you'd get my point.

The Baptists have a great foundational message, solid. However, they fall short in moving forward into the things of the Spirit and the power of God and the deeper truths of the word.

Thats why I was asking if there were more speakers that have moved on in receiving the baptism in the holy Spirit, it's them that I would like to hear because of the deeper spiritual truths.

Please continue adding to this thread messages that are of this nature. God Bless

 2007/7/21 14:07
Blunt
Member



Joined: 2007/3/14
Posts: 50


 Re:

If you fit the mold of Bapticostal.Really try
Calvary Chapel.I went to a baptist seminary and I love being ministered to at a 'Spirit Filled" church(in order of course).All of the calvarys have media pages and the Bible Teaching/Preaching is solid.
Love ya in JC.

 2007/7/21 14:14Profile
vico
Member



Joined: 2005/5/25
Posts: 258


 Re:

Whether or not there is a "baptism of the Holy Spirit" experience or not, we know that everyone that is born-again has the Spirit of God in Him.

The scriptures are clear and simple with no need of explanation.

1John 4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

1John 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

Rom 8:9-10 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Joh 3:5-7 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit there is no being born again.

Praise God Almighty for the Comforter. He has not left us comfortless or alone. He has given us the Spirit of Truth, that will never leave us!

 2007/7/21 17:30Profile









 Re:

Amen
John 1:16
16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
KJV

Eph 1:23
23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
KJV

Eph 3:19
19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
KJV

Col 2:9-10
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
KJV


 2007/7/21 22:17









 Re:

by running2win
Can you give me Acts of the Apostle proof that anyone who was filled with the Spirit didn't speak in tongues??


Response:
Is this the verse below the passage you are referring to. There are 3 kinds of tongues referred to in the scriptures that I know of. Unknown, Other, and new tongues.

Are the new tongues what you are referring to as evidence?

Mark 16:17
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
KJV

When some one is saved, is a devil not cast out?
When they become a new creation do they not speak differently? I do not have a prayer language nor am I saying that no such thing exist. All things are possible with God. He can do and does do all things to accomplish HIS purpose.
The tongues referred to are mentioned in Acts 2:4

Other tongues
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
KJV

Unknown tongues
1 Cor 14:2
2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
KJV

New, unknown, other
Are they different tongues?

Comments welcome



 2007/7/21 23:13
running2win
Member



Joined: 2007/5/15
Posts: 231
Bowmansville Penssylvania USA

 Re:

Quote:
Thats why I was asking if there were more speakers that have moved on in receiving the baptism in the holy Spirit, it's them that I would like to hear because of the deeper spiritual truths.


I've found that there is usually a very marked difference in the preaching of someone who has been baptized with the Holy Ghost and someone who hasn't been. And I too always prefer the preaching and teaching of men who have been filled with the Holy Ghost (baptized with the Holy Ghost if you prefer, I use the two interchangeably because I see them as meaning exactly the same thing.)
because there's so much more depth in what they say and in the way that it speaks and ministers to me.

vico,
Thank you, that's a beautiful collection of verses that you put together. An excellent job of showing that indeed all who are born-again are indwelt by the Holy Spirit and that if one isn't then they are not born-again. I don't argue that point at all.

moe_mac,
I'm not sure I completely understand your last post, would you mind explaining further? It seems that you are saying that you think that the tongues is the difference in the way a person speaks when they are born-again, which being somewhat of a conceivable idea can easily be used to cheapen the work that God does in a believer when he is filled with the Holy Ghost by saying that "it all happens at conversion". Now, again, I don't think that tongues is the absolute proof that one has been filled with the Holy Ghost though it is a prominent one. And I do believe also that in certain cases people are so thoroughly dealt with by God at conversion that they are filled immediately after being converted, in which case you could say that they "got it all at conversion". However, there still needs to be a distinction made in that they have been filled with the Holy Ghost in comparison to the fact that there are many who are saved who are not filled.
I guess my point is, while there is certainly a change of speech in most (in saying [i]most[/i] what I'm refering to is that in cases of let's say a 12 year old who has grown up in a solid christian household, there's not likely going to be much of a change in the way he speaks to others or in his vocabulary after being converted) cases of conversion, to call it tongues is kind of hiding our eyes to the fact that there is a real (supernatural I might add) phenomenon of tongues which happens when one is filled with the Holy Spirit [b]and not before[/b]. I would encourage you to listen to the messages I linked on this thread back at the beginning, namely [i]His Testimony and Conversion by Duncan Campbell[/i] and [i] The Baptism with the Holy Spirit by Paris Reidhead[/i]. I would also add to that the testimony of Dr. J. Edwin Orr. Sorry those aren't links, I couldn't take the time for that.


_________________
Jeff Mollman

 2007/7/23 9:19Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Vico Said: The scriptures are clear and simple with no need of explanation.

When the Bereans were presented the Gospel they thought it necessary to search the scriptures to see what things Paul spoke of were true. Paul could have told them, "Brothers, the scriptures are clear and simple there is no need of an explanation". Scripture tells us to do the opposite of your counsel with
Quote:
2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

I want to rightly divide your comments regarding the infilling of the Holy Spirit.

Quote:
Vico said: Whether or not there is a "baptism of the Holy Spirit" experience or not, we know that everyone that is born-again has the Spirit of God in Him.

I am glad that you said, "Whether or not there is a baptism of the holy Spirit", because I want to draw your attention to the same words in:
Quote:
Acts 19:2 Paul said unto them, Have you received the Holy Ghost since you believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

This group of disciples were believers, but they heard nothing about the [baptism] of the holy Spirit as Paul says in verse 3.

After they learned that it was Christ that baptizes with the Holy Spirit, they immediately were baptized in water in the name of Jesus. Paul knew these people were believers, but he also knew that they were not filled with the holy Spirit.

I want you to pay close attention to what Paul is saying in verse 4:
Quote:
Acts 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

John's baptism was a foreshadow of the baptism of the holy Spirit. "John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance SAYING, that they should believe on Him which should come after him". Paul is expounding a little here in regards to the two baptisms, one being of John the foreshadow, and the other being of Christ the New Creation.

Lets look at what John said:
Quote:
Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

There is a vast difference between water and Spirit. One is natural the other is Spirit. The natural was a foreshadow of the good things that would come, Holy Spirit.

But I don't want to thwart the theme of this post because it's important that you realize that everyone who becomes a believer does not automatically receive the Holy Spirit as most church creeds teach today. Some instances have been reported that persons received the holy Spirit whilest they were listening to the Gospel:
Quote:
Acts 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

Lets look at another example, "out of the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established"
Quote:
Acts 8:14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:16 [b](For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)[/b].

The verses that you quoted from 1John and other places as having the Spirit of God, it MUST be in conjunction to the foundation. We don't go to the back of the book to get our answers, we go to the foundation of the Apostles doctrine and Jesus Christ the chief cornerstone.

 2007/7/23 11:12









 Re:

running2win wrote:

moe_mac,I'm not sure I completely understand your last post, would you mind explaining further? It seems that you are saying that you think that the tongues is the difference in the way a person speaks when they are born-again, which being somewhat of a conceivable idea can easily be used to cheapen the work that God does in a believer when he is filled with the Holy Ghost by saying that "it all happens at conversion". Now, again, I don't think that tongues is the absolute proof that one has been filled with the Holy Ghost though it is a prominent one. And I do believe also that in certain cases people are so thoroughly dealt with by God at conversion that they are filled immediately after being converted, in which case you could say that they "got it all at conversion". However, there still needs to be a distinction made in that they have been filled with the Holy Ghost in comparison to the fact that there are many who are saved who are not filled.




moe_mac response to clarify!!!!!
I will attempt to explain further. I don't believe it is possible to cheapen the power of God when someone is saved from hell. I believe a person can bring God’s wrath on themselves if they knowingly speak against HIS truth or add to it and who in their right mind would want that. We must not speak abusively about what we do not understand.I can only speak of what I know and understand.

The way I understand the scripture at the present, within my understanding of what HE has given me is all I am capable of speaking of, as I replied, and that understanding I have, is just what it says, "they will speak with new tongues" Mark 16:17
The Bible talks of unknown and other tongues also.
NT:1100
glossa (gloce-sah'); of uncertain affinity; the tongue; by implication, a language (specially, one naturally unacquired):

Lets go over what God has done throughout HIS WORD on this subject. The first thing I could recall was the tower of Babel. He confused their language. The second is on the day of Pentecost he allowed each person to hear in his own language. On the Day of Pentecost he did just the opposite from the tower of Babel. God has given man the knowledge and the technology to convert HIS WORD “THE BIBLE” to many languages and to broadcast it by satellite and other ways to many countries because he is not willing that any should perish but all to come to the knowledge of the truth.

On the day of Pentecost when everyone heard Peter in there own language as Luke alluded to in Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;18. They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
KJV
Now, ok let go through the verse, they shall take up serpents, now if God told me to pick up a deadly snake I pray that my faith will allow me to, but HE ain’t and I ain’t going to unless I know should tell me. He hasn’t told me to drink any deadly poison either as they did at Jamestown or I can gather from the rest of HIS WORD I don’t believe he will tell us to pick up a snake or drink poison but I guess it is possible. The point Paul is making is when our physical bodies die we are present with the Lord. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Hey that’s enough to shout about.

The other tongue referred to is unknown tongues. God did what he needed to do at the time to get HIS WORD to HIS people.
Acts 2:3-7
4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.
5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking in his own language. 7 Utterly amazed, they asked: "Are not all these men who are speaking Galileans?




Other tongues
1 Cor 14:21-22
21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
KJV

1 Cor 12:10-11
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
KJV

1 Cor 12:30-31
30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
KJV



1 Cor 12:28-30
28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
KJV

Ok answer Paul’s question, do they all speak with tongues?

and also in
1 Cor 13:1-2
13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
KJV

When we have been saved, we have the Holy Spirit living within us. One third of the Trinity lives in our mortal bodies, we can’t have the Holy Spirit, without first repenting and accepting the SON, His virgin birth, and what he did at the cross, His sinless life, His resurrection, and whoever has THE SON, has fellowship with the Father. And we know God is Love. Would you say all saved people have HIS love living within them?





And we have more on tongues in:
1 Cor 13:8-11
8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away .9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
KJV


Now the next questions is do Christians have all the same gifts as Paul? The only one I know for sure we don’t have is the authority to add to God’s Word. I can’t add “1st moe-mac 2:1” or you can’t add “2nd running win 14:2”. So the answer is, no we don’t have all the authority Paul had. Again I am not saying if anyone speaks in tongues it is not of God. Do not read anything into what I have said or not said.

and also in

1 Cor 14:5-7
5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?
7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?
KJV

And also in
1 Cor 14:18-24

18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.
20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.
21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:
KJV

And it is real interesting how some people want to take some of Paul writings under the inspiration of the Holy Sprit leave the rest out, such as with the snakes, the poison and the verses below about authority in the church. But it says if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
Now the Southern Baptist Convention not long ago passed a resolution forbidding speaking in tongues. Go figure. At the present time I am a member of a Baptist church. I don’t know how long. My church membership does not save me. Jesus saved me. It is every believer’s service to work in the local body. To be honest with you I don’t know one that does all I see and understand in God’s Word. I see adding to and taking away. What are they thinking? And you watch it want be long until they ordain women in the ministry. Let um be ignorant right!!!

and also in:
1 Cor 14:35-15:1
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
40 Let all things be done decently and in order.
KJV

As I said I do not have a prayer language. I do not interpret as in the meaning of to understand someone when they speak in tongues and relay in English what they said or any other language.

Am I saying it is not of God? Absolutely not. As I said earlier "nothing is impossible with God”. If he spoke to man through a donkey then why couldn't he do it through anyone and why couldn’t he do it any way that he chose to. Just because I don't understand it does not mean anything. There are many things in God's Word that I can't give an opinion about, because I don't have a clue all that it saying and neither does anyone know probably even half. But I do know he has gave me the understanding that he desires me to have at this time because I asks Him regularly to give me more understanding of HIS WORD. I can only speak about what he has given me in the present and what I do speak and attempt to speak about HIS word I do it with much seriousness and fear and trembling. We must speak the truth in love as he has revealed to us.


God speaks to us many different ways. I do not cheapen anything of God or from God. God help me us if we do. QUIET THE CONTRARY. I want to lift up THE NAME OF JESUS, HIS TRUTH and HIS RIGHTOUSNESS. Apart from HIM we are nothing.

I too don't see most people getting even half of God's at conversion. Sanctification is a process in a sense and a completeness in another sense. At conversion we have all that is neccasary to be heirs and joint heirs with HIM. We will not be glorified until we pass from our present body to the one HE glorifies. I have grown in HIS knowledge and understanding and I know if I were to put a scale on it the amount of understanding would be minute.

Since a true conversion in my life, I have alienated by many of my former friends and relatives. Could it be all I want to do is talk about HIM, HIS WORD, HIS LOVE, HIS CHURCH and they don't want to hear it? I don't know but it sure appears as if. Will I compromise and be silent? I haven't yet. With HIS Strength I want be silent.There are many signs that he gives us in HIS WORD that we can examine ourselves with to see if we are of the faith. I want to examine myself daily. I need to know daily that he is pleased with me. I find it neccasary to confess my sins regulary and ask for strength to endure the fallout. It is important for to me to know that I am following where he leads. We can see in HIS WORD one way to gauge spiritual maturity in our own life is the abiltity to know good from evil.Heb. 5:14
14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
KJV
and examine ourselves
As 2nd 13:5


I hope I have cleared up any possible misunderstanding in my last post.

And to answer one question, No, not all saved people are at the same levels of spiritual fulness.

Any rebuttal not only welcome but encouraged.

In Christ
Gary
moe_mac





 2007/7/23 12:40





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