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rocklife
Member



Joined: 2004/4/1
Posts: 323
usa

 Re:

To Delboy

Revelation 21:8 says, "the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars- their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur."

Why would God allow evil people into heaven? He doesn't. Wouldn't it be wonderful to see an unrepentant Hitler in heaven next to his millions of victims? No, not really.

To tell an unrepentant sinner that "God loves you but you're going to hell if you don't trust Jesus before you die," doesn't make sense. God sounds like a tyrant, and they don't want Jesus if He's a tyrant. That way of preaching doesn't make sense. The bible has been hard for me to obey, I've given up friends, relationships, secular things, etc, why should I bother if God loves me as I was? God's righteousness should be presented in a way that's understandable to sinners.

Show sin, and tell sinners about forsaking sin and that God sent a perfect, sinless sacrifice to take our punishment for sin, and that's how God shows His love. You tell about God's love without the cross or His Justice, you're only telling a half-truth.

Revelation expounds on the state of the ungodly, read that for more.

Proverbs says "the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom." Preach sin, judgment, and God's righteous, Holiness, before you preach His love.


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Jina

 2004/4/23 16:06Profile
KeithLaMothe
Member



Joined: 2004/3/28
Posts: 354


 Re:

Quote:
What I meant was we cannot judge the unsaved.

I think we're operating on different definitions of the word "judge." According to mine, it's a "judgment" even to say whether or not someone is saved. Believing someone to be "unsaved" is a very serious judgment indeed, but it is one we must often make if we are to know how to act towards the person.

Quote:
We can and must point out sin, and teach what sin is, so sinners know why they must repent before God judges this world in righteousness.

Amen.

Quote:
Pointing out sin is not judging


Reciting the Biblical definitions of sin is not necessarily judging unsaved people, but pointing out such sin in their lives would be judging. Again, I think we have a difference of definition here, what do you mean when you say "judge" ?

Quote:
but we too sin, and must be open about that,

Yes, we must not cover our sin. But if we are guilty of a sin we must not judge others for that sin (that would be hypocrisy). I'd say we shouldn't even preach against it in general until we have repented of the sin and been freed from it. To do so would be inviting lightning bolts, I think.

Quote:
not just tell sinners their sins, but also teach what sin is, and we must stop sinning ourselves.

Amen, Amen.

Quote:
I was paraphrasing James 4:12 referring to not judging the unsaved

Why do you interpret James 4:12 as referring to judging the unsaved and not the brethren? I understand it to be just the opposite:

James 4
11 [b]Speak not evil one of another, brethren[/b]. He that speaketh evil of his [b]brother[/b] and [b]judgeth his brother[/b], speaketh evil of the law and judgeth the law. But if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.
12 There is one Lawgiver who is able to save and to destroy. Who art thou that judgest another?

Quote:
Please forgive any confusion. I pray there are no further miscommunications, and peace reigns.

I don't mind, I understand that miscommunication is common particularly in this format, and I won't hold it against anyone, I just want to clarify what's being said in case I've misunderstood (I'm very good at misunderstanding).

God's grace be with you all,
-Keith

 2004/4/23 16:16Profile
moreofHim
Member



Joined: 2003/10/15
Posts: 1632


 Re:

Personally I am against war. I don't even like my son to play army and pretend to shoot people. (I think I am an Anabaptist is many ways, maybe Quaker) :-D Of course my husband still thinks it's ok and so I think we balance each other out. And that's a good thing.

Mostly I think I look at things from an otherwordly perspective. I do not consider my self American- I consider myself a Christian. I am not against patriotism really- I don't get into it because my allegiance is to Christ. But I know that i am obligated to follow the laws, ect... (I am almost ashamed to be an American anymore because we fall into the pattern of Sodom and Gomorrah).

I cannot control what goes on with war so I just use the situation to the best I can. To pray for God's will to be done through the situation and in people's lives.

Quote:
The question is on the lips of people today, "Is war of the devil or of God?" It is of neither. It is of men, though both God and the devil are behind it. War is a conflict of wills, either in individuals or in nations. As sure as there is will versus will, there must be punch versus punch.—Oswald Chambers in The Love of God.



Walking with Him, Chanin


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Chanin

 2004/4/23 16:20Profile
rocklife
Member



Joined: 2004/4/1
Posts: 323
usa

 Re:

It's not a judgment if the person tells you they are not saved, or they have no religion, etc.

I think getting others to think of God and turn to God wholeheartedly is something we can do for everyone, whether they are Christians or not. We all need encouragement to grow with God. Some need to know about Jesus and sin, that's a part of the Christian life.


There are a few who seek truth, we should help when we can.

I am not talking about evangelizing to church members, I am talking about those who don't know the church. I am an ex drug-addict and drug dealer. I have unsaved family members, these are the kinds of sinners I'm talking about, not churchgoers.


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Jina

 2004/4/23 16:20Profile
KeithLaMothe
Member



Joined: 2004/3/28
Posts: 354


 Re:

Quote:
Revelation 21:8 says, "the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars- their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur."

I want to put that on a banner and carry it while preaching (not all the time, but if things need stirring). Either that verse or 1 Cor. 6:9-10 or Galatians 5:19-21. It'd be interesting, at least.

Quote:
You tell about God's love, you're only telling a half-truth.

Amen. Further, the slogan "God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life" is flat out misleading to most sinners. Mind you, it's technically true, but it's misleading to tell it to sinners because:

1) as discussed earlier, God's "love" for rebellious sinners is not the kind of affectionate love they probably think of when they hear that statement.

2) while God's plan is quite wonderful indeed for those that love Him, it's debatable whether you could call His plan for the unsaved wonderful if they are tormented for all eternity. Personally I still think it's wonderful, it's wonderfully just, but I'm probably in something of a minority in that opinion even among Christians, let alone heathen. Another thing, while we would consider God's plan for Paul's life to be amazingly wonderful, when sinners hear "wonderful plan" they're almost certainly [b]not[/b] thinking "beatings, stonings, shipwrecks, and martyrdom" as part of it.

Quote:
Proverbs says "the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom." Preach sin, judgment, and God's righteous, Holiness, before you preach His love.

AMEN!

Thanks for the comments. I think we're both reciting Ray Comfort, but it stands recitation.

 2004/4/23 16:29Profile
rocklife
Member



Joined: 2004/4/1
Posts: 323
usa

 Re:

:)


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Jina

 2004/4/23 16:38Profile
KeithLaMothe
Member



Joined: 2004/3/28
Posts: 354


 Re:

Quote:

Personally I am against war. I don't even like my son to play army and pretend to shoot people.

Even if I were a hardline patriot (and I'm not) I wouldn't ever let children I was responsible for have anything to do with violence (or pretended violence) against another human. No matter how innocuous some forms of it seem. If a person must learn war and violence, let them learn it after maturing physically and spiritually, lest the madness of it all poison the tree from the root.

Quote:
Mostly I think I look at things from an otherwordly perspective. I do not consider my self American- I consider myself a Christian. I am not against patriotism really- I don't get into it because my allegiance is to Christ.

Pretty much my position exactly. I appreciate the service (such as it is) provided by our government, and more than that I appreciate God for keeping our country going... but the USA could disappear tomorrow and it wouldn't really bother me, my kingdom is not earthly.

Quote:
(I am almost ashamed to be an American anymore because we fall into the pattern of Sodom and Gomorrah).

Amen. We've really messed up. Sodom had no Bible, we don't even have that excuse (which wasn't enough to save them, anyway).

 2004/4/23 16:39Profile









 Re:


So, my question is: Given Jesus' command to love our enemies, is participating in war a sin? If our allegence is to God and NOT country, if our real home is not of this earth, shouldn't Christians resist such participation?


Im going off on a tangent here, bear with me.

The classic example of a reason to fight a war is Europe WWII against Hitler. But the problem is that Hitler came to power because of the previous war. (WWI) Germany was impoverished by sanctions and was ripe for fascism.

Another problem was the interpretation of bones found at Neander in the late 1800s. German scientists interpreted them -- NEanderthals -- as a race of humans that had become extinct because they were inferior. Over the years this interpretation took hold and it came to be a common belief that some races of humans were superior to others and that in order to keep the superior race pure, the inferior had to be eliminated. Thus the campaign to exterminate the Jews.

My point is that war and ignorance of human nature beget more wars. So, enjoining one, even though it seems just at the time, may well result in just another to be engaged by the next generation. SO, whatever rational you can come up with, history undermines it.

The only way to deal with this is to simply not participate. And doing so is to follow Jesus example and commands.

I simply cannot understand Christians participating in war, for any reason.

Jake

 2004/4/23 17:00
rocklife
Member



Joined: 2004/4/1
Posts: 323
usa

 Re:

Praise God, Jesus rules.


_________________
Jina

 2004/4/23 17:16Profile
KeithLaMothe
Member



Joined: 2004/3/28
Posts: 354


 Re:

Insightful thoughts, and certainly anyone thinking war is some little thing should think about that.

Quote:
So, my question is: Given Jesus' command to love our enemies, is participating in war a sin?

We are commanded to love our enemies, and also our neighbors. If our enemies come after our neighbors with deadly force, and we defend our neighbors (out of love for them) and in the process are involved in physical violence against our enemies, is it sin to us? If our enemies come after our neighbors with deadly force, and we remove ourselves from the situation and our neighbors and their families are victims of physical violence at the hands of our enemies, is it sin to us?

James 4:17
Therefore to him that knoweth how to do good and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

The real question is, if we're in the situation where an enemy is attacking our neighbors, what is the [b]right[/b] thing to do? What is the [b]loving[/b] thing to do? It's not a trivial question.

Please note I'm not trying to directly apply to any of the conflicts currently going on, just discussing the principle of whether it is necessarily sin to participate in a military conflict.

If our allegence is to God and NOT country, if our real home is not of this earth, shouldn't Christians resist such participation?

Quote:
The classic example of a reason to fight a war is Europe WWII against Hitler. But the problem is that Hitler came to power because of the previous war. (WWI) Germany was impoverished by sanctions and was ripe for fascism.

We (Christians) failed to properly minister to the people of Germany after the first war. The conditions of the armistice could be seen as a problem waiting to happen, forgiveness and willingness to reconcile and the such were woefully absent. In a sense, the war never stopped, just the shooting. We failed to heal the wounds. And don't be deceived for a moment that God couldn't have healed those wounds and reconciled the nations one to another, but it would seem the Christians of the time didn't take on the burden of being His vessels in such a work.

Quote:
... the campaign to exterminate the Jews.



Again, we failed. I'm sure some tried to preach against the abominable idea of ethnic cleansing, and the erroneous premises underlying it.

If a war involving our community breaks out, more likely than not we've already got a great deal to repent of.

The question of what to do once it's upon us is fairly complicated.

Quote:
I simply cannot understand Christians participating in war, for any reason.


It's certainly something I have no desire to do, and it's such a tragedy that we even have to make such a decision... but where does the problem truly lie?

 2004/4/23 17:44Profile





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