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 Re: Peter's Sword

"Judas," said Jesus, with deep repulsion, "do you betray the Son of Man with a kiss ? "

At this, Judas fell back. But Peter drew a sword, and asked whether they should not defend themselves. Not waiting to hear an answer, Peter struck out and cut off the ear of one of the soldiers.

Jesus, knowing that they might all be killed then and there, and not wishing to have any bloodshed on His account, at once told Peter to stop:

"Put your sword back in its sheath, for all those who take the sword shall perish by the sword. If I wished to be defended, do you not know that I could pray to my Father and He would send me twelve legions of angels? But it is written that what is to be, must be. Put up your sword."

This seems pretty clear to me. Fight war, die by war. It is the obligation of Christians to work for peace, and make war no more.

Jake

 2004/4/23 10:26
KeithLaMothe
Member



Joined: 2004/3/28
Posts: 354


 Re:

That's a good passage for perspective. Our Lord did not come to conquer the world by military might (as much as the Jews rather wished He would), nor did He have any need of carnal forces when it came to self-defense.

If I had good reason to believe God would send angels (or some such) to take care of all military problems we might face (invaders, terrorists, nuclear bombardment, etc) I wouldn't mind scrapping the whole human military idea and just trust God, because He'd protect us and only let something happen if He had a purpose to fulfill in it.

But do we have such assurance? Of His protection, yes, but assurance that He'll take care of it all in such a way that doesn't involve human participation? I'd be quite happy to hear support for that idea, if anyone's got it.

I think there's also something important in the fact that Jesus did not rebuke Peter for his action (and Jesus certainly had no history of holding back when it came to rebuking Peter), but merely told him to stop. Jesus then healed the ear (Luke 22:51).

How about this passage?

Luke 22
35 And He said unto them, "When I sent you without purse and pack and shoes, lacked ye anything?" And they said, "Nothing."
36 Then said He unto them, "But [u]now[/u], he that hath a purse, let him take it and likewise his pack; and [b]he that hath no [u]sword[/u], let him sell his garment and [u]buy one[/u][/b].
37 For I say unto you that this that is written must yet be accomplished in Me: `And He was reckoned among the transgressors.' For the things concerning Me have an end."

I don't suppose the Lord would have told them this unless they would have some need of the weapons, and that He intended them to have and use them in certain circumstances (though, obviously, not during His arrest). It's not necessarily established what He intended us to do after His Ascension, but I think any hardline-pacifist would need to explain why this passage does not apply to us now, if they are to justify their condemnation of any military act.

Just my thoughts, I look forward to seeing yours.

May the God of Heaven bless us with peace in Christ Jesus,
-Keith

 2004/4/23 11:00Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

A couple of comments:

It is a very, very dangerous thing to be making assumptions about the faith of the President.

Terrorism is a [i]fact[/i].

To stand by and do nothing about it is a greater sin.

[i]Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
Mat 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.[/i]


Quote:
"Judas," said Jesus, with deep repulsion, "do you betray the Son of Man with a kiss ? "At this, Judas fell back. But Peter drew a sword, and asked whether they should not defend themselves. Not waiting to hear an answer, Peter struck out and cut off the ear of one of the soldiers.
Jesus, knowing that they might all be killed then and there, and not wishing to have any bloodshed on His account, at once told Peter to stop:

"Put your sword back in its sheath, for all those who take the sword shall perish by the sword. If I wished to be defended, do you not know that I could pray to my Father and He would send me twelve legions of angels? But it is written that what is to be, must be. Put up your sword."

This seems pretty clear to me. Fight war, die by war. It is the obligation of Christians to work for peace, and make war no more.




What version is this from? Assuming it's a paraphrased of sorts, but equally dangerous in putting extra words into the mouth of our Lord.

"[i]It is the obligation of Christians to work for peace, and make war no more.[/i]"

Would that not include stopping those who wish to disturb that peace?


_________________
Mike Balog

 2004/4/23 11:14Profile









 Re:

I guess it comes down to this: Jesus gave us a command to love our enemies. I can not see any way of loving our enemies with weapons or violence. Again, I know we differ on this, but I trust the words and commands of Jesus much more than others in the Bible. And He cannot contradict Himself as a house divided falls.

Yes, the Bible tells of wars to come. But it doesn't say this is right, nor that it is right for Christians to participate.

Finally, I trust that the God of Love does not need to use human agents of violence to do His will. See Zech. 4:6, my signature below.

Jake

 2004/4/23 12:28
rocklife
Member



Joined: 2004/4/1
Posts: 323
usa

 Re:

by jake on 2004/4/23 11:28:10

I guess it comes down to this: Jesus gave us a command to love our enemies. I can not see any way of loving our enemies with weapons or violence. Again, I know we differ on this, but I trust the words and commands of Jesus much more than others in the Bible. And He cannot contradict Himself as a house divided falls. (end quote)


Amen to that!


_________________
Jina

 2004/4/23 13:20Profile
rocklife
Member



Joined: 2004/4/1
Posts: 323
usa

 Re:

To get a little off the subject, God is a God of love, He is love, but He is also righteous and just. Yes, Christians should not judge others, especially sinners, because we are just mere men. Only God knows the hearts. There is going to be a time and place for judgment.
If we are going to say God is love, we must balance that with righteous and just too, because God doesn't love those in rebellion to Him. Again, it is not our place to judge, but the point is He is angry at sinners who refuse to turn to Him. We must be loving, but we must be careful how we talk about God's love to those who don't know God. He doesn't love rebellious sinners, why would they go to hell if He loved them? That doesn't make sense. He showed His love towards us that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us, but if we trample the blood of Christ, God will pay back righteously in punishment of sins. Warning ignorant and disobedient sinners of judgment to come should be a priority of Christians, that one day men will give an account of themselves to God, and only the blood of Christ can save us. He is the only one righteous, no one else.

Jake, you made a great point that we must obey Jesus much more than anyone else, because He's our savior and Lord.

(this is a little off topic, sorry about that)


_________________
Jina

 2004/4/23 13:37Profile
Delboy
Member



Joined: 2004/2/8
Posts: 199
Worthing UK

 Re:

oilpainter, hi, are you sure about this statement from a new testament view?

Quote:
because God doesn't love those in rebellion to Him. Again, it is not our place to judge, but the point is He is angry at sinners who refuse to turn to Him. We must be loving, but we must be careful how we talk about God's love


if you are please show me, thanks :-)


_________________
derek Eyre

 2004/4/23 14:08Profile
KeithLaMothe
Member



Joined: 2004/3/28
Posts: 354


 Re:

Quote:
Yes, Christians should not judge others, especially sinners, because we are just mere men. Only God knows the hearts. There is going to be a time and place for judgment.

I think there's a great deal of confusion about what it means to "judge." Here's the text of a tract one of my friends distributes (we get this objection every single time we preach, or so I recall)

Quote:
Judge Not Lest Ye Be Judged!

The most misquoted verse in the Bible is probably Matthew 7:1, "Judge not that ye be not judged." We hear this verse multiple times a day. At Troy State University in Alabama, a professor we met even said that it was one of the Ten Commandments. Too often we have heard sincere, misinformed Christians and unbelievers alike say, "I don’t want to judge anybody, but..." Ironically, the one who screams "judge not" is often the one passing judgment on you!

Let’s See What the Bible Really Says About Judging:

"The mouth of the righteous speaketh wisdom, and his tongue talketh of judgment." (Psa 37:30)

"With my lips have I declared all the judgments of thy mouth." (Psa 119:13)

"Open thy mouth, judge righteously, and plead the cause of the poor and needy." (Prov 31:9)

Jesus commended Simon, "Thou hast rightly judged." (Luke 7:43)



"Now, thou son of man, wilt thou judge, wilt thou judge the bloody city? yea, thou shalt show her all her abominations." (Ezek 22:2)

"But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man." (1 Cor 2:15)

"Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?" (1 Cor 6:2)

"Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?" (1 Cor 6:3)


There are many other passages and verses in the Bible about judging. While God is our ultimate Judge, He has also commanded us to judge according to the Word of God.

According to the Webster’s Dictionary, to judge means "to discern, to distinguish, to form an opinion, to compare facts or ideas, and perceive their agreement or disagreement, and thus to distinguish truth from falsehood." Therefore, when you say that your neighbor is a "good person," you are passing a judgment (forming an opinion) just as much as when you say that the thief is a "bad person."


If there were no judgment...

All the prisons would be empty and thieves, serial killers, drug dealers, rapists, and murderers would be loose in your neighborhood.

You could not discipline your children and teach them not to steal, lie, do drugs, or give in to peer pressure.

School could not be mandated (by parents or govt) but if children did attend, they could not be evaluated as to their progress. Everyone should graduate regardless of their advance. Students could not be graded or disciplined.

You could not judge any false doctrine and would have to allow it to be taught from your church’s pulpit ("discerning" is the same thing as "judging").

You should leave your children with anyone who said was qualified to be a baby-sitter. You should not bother to check his/her background. Later, you should not be upset if this baby-sitter turned out to be a child-molester, because "thou shalt not judge."

You should marry anyone that asked. You shouldn’t worry about his/her character or beliefs. What if he beats you up? What if she runs around on you? You shouldn’t get so mad because "thou shalt not judge."


Hopefully you can see the folly of such silly doctrine by now. The devil has been successful to push the church further and further into a corner, while everyone else comes out of the closet with their sins. Most often, those who tell you "not to judge" them do so because they are either hiding something or want to continue doing it without reaping negative effects for it. In the campuses where we have been, students say that we shouldn’t judge (form an opinion of) fornicators, drunkards, liars, homosexuals, or the like. However, they fail to realize that sin harms them and their neighbors. A caring, loving Christian will judge all situations according to the Word of God and call sinners to repentance.

The church has become intimidated by the opinions of the world as they scream, "You religious bigots, hatemongers, and intolerant people (which are judgments in themselves), do not judge me!" However, God clearly commands us to judge so we won’t be deceived. Why would the command to judge be so vehemently attacked in society? Obviously, if the church stops judging and using our common sense, we will no longer be able to distinguish good from evil, we will buy into the politically correct idea of moral relativism (what’s good for you may not be good for me), and we will bow down to the devil’s wishes to deceive us, our family, and our friends.

Even more disturbing is to see church leadership saying, "do not judge." Many pastors lead their sheep astray and keep them under their manipulative control by telling them that they have a "critical spirit," they are "prideful," or "judgemental," while all they are trying to do is to discern the truth. If you find yourself in such a church, FLEE for your (spiritual) life!

Now let’s take a look at the famous verse that is so misquoted today and put it in its PROPER context. If we are intellectually honest when looking at this passage, we will find that it is actually teaching us to judge, not to refrain from judging! We have inserted a few comments in brackets.

Mat 7:1-5 "Judge not, that ye be not judged [do not judge others if you do not want to be judged by others; everyone will be judged by God]. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again [if you judge others, they will judge you by the same measures]. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye [how can you judge someone when you are guilty of the sin yourself]? Thou hypocrite [this is the audience in the context; a hypocrite is one who is not living what he is preaching], first cast out the beam out of thine own eye [FIRST judge yourself and get your own life cleaned up]; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye [THEN after you get your life straight, you will be able to discern clearly and you are commanded to help clean your brother’s eye!].

Other misquoted Scriptures:

Romans 14:3-10. This is about dietary preferences, things that are not essential to salvation.

Romans 2:1-3. We have the same scenario of Mat. 7. We should not judge others if we are guilty of the same things. We must first clean up our own lives through repentance and faith, then we are qualified to judge others.

James 4:11 says that we are not to speak evil of other "brethren" -- those who are obediently doing the will of God (Mat 12:50). This does not apply to those living in willful sin.



How Are We to Judge?

1. We are to judge righteously. Jesus commands in John 7:24, "Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment."

Judge by the Word of God and Its principles, not by someone’s skin color, whether they are tall or short (inherited physical traits), etc.

2. We are to judge without hypocrisy. "And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?" (Rom 2:3)

Judge yourself first to see if you are guilty of that sin. Live what you preach. Only after you get your life cleaned up by turning from your sins and receiving pardon through repentance and faith in Jesus (i.e. you get saved) you can go and help others to be saved too.

 2004/4/23 15:45Profile
KeithLaMothe
Member



Joined: 2004/3/28
Posts: 354


 Re:

Quote:

Delboy wrote:
oilpainter, hi, are you sure about this statement from a new testament view?

Quote:
because God doesn't love those in rebellion to Him. Again, it is not our place to judge, but the point is He is angry at sinners who refuse to turn to Him. We must be loving, but we must be careful how we talk about God's love


if you are please show me, thanks :-)

I think God loves everyone, but towards the rebellious it is only a benevolent, rather than affectionate, love.

I read a good article on God's love and hatred for sinners, here's part of it (I'd post it all, but it's big) :
Quote:

PSALMS 5:5
"GOD HATES ALL WORKERS OF INIQUITY"

If we tell an unsaved, unrepentant person that God personally loves him WHEN HE REALLY DOES NOT,
it becomes a serious crime against the very character of God Himself.
I believe this offense is committed by many Christian people on a regular basis to the non-Christian world.
It is our hope we can put an end to this, misrepresentation of the character of God.

ROMANS 5:8
But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Note: A DEMONSTRATION of love towards a person and
AFFECTIONATELY LOVING a person are two different things.

BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.

The word for "love" in John 3:16 is agape.

We automatically assume when we say,
"God loves you"
it means He feels emotionally and affectionately warm toward you.

Agape love is an issue of the will,
not the emotions.

Our language has one word for "love", whereas the Greek language has many words for "love".
There are different types of love in the Greek language,
but in our language we adapted the meaning for only one of these words,
meaning personal affection (PHILEO),
and have applied it across the board.

The love in John 3:16 is AGAPE,
it is not affectionate at all.
Therefore, we better qualify exactly what we mean before we give people the impression that God loves them,
when they're thinking affectionately, and God is not.

If a man responds to John 3:16
(love which is void of any experiential relationship),
he will experience God's PHILE0 love.
But if he does not respond to it (the Cross)
he will continue to be under condemnation and wrath.

John 3:18
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Another way of looking at John 3:16
could be through the eyes of a righteous judge.

A judge could say, "I love the courts."
But we might ask, "How can you have courts without actual people?"
Well, you can't!
However, his statement, "I love the courts"
does not bind him to loving every criminal that comes before him in the courts!

Titus 3:4
But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for MANKIND appeared, He saved us...

John 3:16
is a collective statement that could be interpreted as referring to creation (man) as it (he) was in the garden before the fall. This could be why the word "love" in this verse is in the aorist tense. It could be reference to the past, a given point in time when this was true.

BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE

EPHESIANS 2:4-5 1 JOHN 4:9-10 1 JOHN 4:19

These verses pertain to people who will ultimately go to heaven.
There is no indication that they are talking about anybody that will go to Hell.
By these scriptures it cannot be conceived that God has loved someone, or ever will, love someone who will wind up in hell.

Technically speaking a person could force John 3:16 to make it look like God personally loves the sinner.
But even in this attempt the quality of this love is of absolutely no practical or personal value to the unredeemed sinner.
Other than providing air for him to breath and the option for him to repent of his sins and trust in Jesus,

BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE BIBLE

WHO TOLD YOU........GOD LOVES YOU!

Are they telling you the truth or are they deceiving,
by taking the urgency out of the lost persons deprived state before God.
Making a person think God looks favorably towards him when he does not.

DONALD GREY BARNHOUSE, Bible expositor:
Unsaved men are never called the beloved of God.
Romans, Vol.l,pg.86

2 TIMOTHY 4:3-4
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires;
4} and will turn away their ears from the truth, and will turn aside to myths.

 2004/4/23 16:02Profile
rocklife
Member



Joined: 2004/4/1
Posts: 323
usa

 Re:

Those are good points, Keithlamothe, I have also had that "judge not least you be judged" misquoted back to me by disobedient churchgoing professing Christians. What I meant was we cannot judge the unsaved.

We can and must point out sin, and teach what sin is, so sinners know why they must repent before God judges this world in righteousness.

Pointing out sin is not judging, but we too sin, and must be open about that, not just tell sinners their sins, but also teach what sin is, and we must stop sinning ourselves.

I was paraphrasing James 4:12 referring to not judging the unsaved, "There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you- who are you to judge your neighbor."

At the same time, using wisdom and prayerful discernment, we can judge our Christian brothers according to 1 corinthians 5:12, "What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."

Please forgive any confusion. I pray there are no further miscommunications, and peace reigns.


_________________
Jina

 2004/4/23 16:03Profile





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