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 the hobbling stake of the Christian Church

I posted this under the revivalism string but think it also belongs here.


Revival? Evangelism?

Several recent posts state that we need a worldwide revival of Christianity. I would offer a cautionary note to this idea. The Gospel of Jesus Christ has been preached far and wide for hundreds, no thousands, of years by many well meaning men and women. Lots of people have been “saved” but the world is still going to “hell in a handbag” to use a crude, but accurate, expression.

Willing “Christian soldiers” are, in my opinion, the hobbling stake that keeps Christianity from taking hold and spreading around the world. That Christ confessing people have taken up arms, no matter what the reason, and gone to war, injures the body of Christ and renders the whole movement subject to deviance. The hypocrisy of people who proclaim the holy Man-servant of the God of love while practicing war and violence shines like a beacon across the world. (Everyone can see it.)

Any revival or evangelism movement needs to challenge those who engage in war, levy war taxes, provide funding to arms producers, or in any way support the established worldwide military complex. This is the greatest challenge facing the Church and mankind, as those who support or fail to oppose war are complicit in all the horrors that come with it.

Jesus said that we shall know them by their fruits. Christian soldiers are producing bad fruit indeed. Revival? Evangelism? Christ cannot be advanced through a compromise. And that compromise will remain unspoken and unexamined by faulty Christians, unless those who preach the Gospel of salvation do so in the full light of Jesus’ Love.

“Wait in the measure of the Spirit of God to guide you up to God, and keep you all in peace and unity.” George Fox

Jake


 2004/4/16 12:03
Delboy
Member



Joined: 2004/2/8
Posts: 199
Worthing UK

 Re: the hobbling stake of the Christian Church

Jake, a paragraph in your post...

Jesus said that we shall know them by their fruits. Christian soldiers are producing bad fruit indeed. Revival? Evangelism? Christ cannot be advanced through a compromise. And that compromise will remain unspoken and unexamined by faulty Christians, unless those who preach the Gospel of salvation do so in the full light of Jesus’ Love.

In England we have a saying "what a load of rubbish"
Jake i am not attacking you personally,however through observation of most of your posts you seem to attack christianity and cherry pick your views.I have held back my thoughts until now,You blatently disregard anything that opposes your personal agenda.Are your posts written to encourage our walk with Christ?Sadly dear friend I think not
Yes,we are all on our journeys of life and there are many a stumbling block out to trip us,please dont add to them
:-?


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derek Eyre

 2004/4/16 17:49Profile
bigdaveusa
Member



Joined: 2003/6/13
Posts: 49


 Re: the hobbling stake of the Christian Church

A careful examination of scripture is called for, Jake. As for myself, I am a sojourner here. The earth is not my home, I'm just passing through. I am admonished that as a good soldier of Jesus Christ that I am not to involve myself in civil matters. What is hobbling the church is a love for the world and the things in it. I am admonished to be a peacemaker, however I do not dictate policy, America's or otherwise. All that I can say is that you are confusing American foreign policy with christian doctrine. Quite bizarre: I would encourage you to turn aside and pray and seek God. :-)


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Dave

 2004/4/18 21:36Profile
Chad
Member



Joined: 2003/11/17
Posts: 56
JC MO

 Re:

Brother-
I absolutely agree with you here.

I wonder how passive you are, Jake. I wonder how much of your love shines on those who need it. I do not know you personally, but your posts and replies all seem to throw out anything, even in scripture, that interferes with your ideology. One minute you speak of love, yet in one post, you talk of Calvinist beliefs as though you were one of the chosen few and the rest were out of luck. Some love.

[u]True[/u] love is [u][i][b]ABSOLUTELY[/b][/i][/u] SELFLESS. It comes only from the Father and it flows from the inside, out of our hearts. Love will cause compassion and if it is real and powerful enough, it will cause us to act.

I ask you, Jake, do you remember the first time you saw an incredible girl and you knew you'd do WHATEVER IT TOOK to win her heart? The desperation? The ecstatic sighs? The sheer joy that she may have brought to you?

Now apply that feeling to our love affair with Jesus Christ. True love will cause us to see others as He does- the need, the hurt, the pain, and we will respond accordingly.
True revival won't [i]require[/i] policy change it will [i]bring[/i] policy change!!! (Remember prohibition...?!)
Revival requires us to be broken before God and to live out in love and obedience. And revival will come when we do that- humble ourselves, repent of our arrogance and sin and seek God with all of our hearts, and not a minute sooner.


I, too, think that you should seek God, not your liberal theology. But that is between you and God himself. Who am I?


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Chad Lough

 2004/4/19 10:19Profile









 Re: The church and war

“Nations are not thugs. They are bodies of intelligent people. Their claims and causes and charges are either just or unjust. They would practically never push their claims, causes and charges to extreme issue if they were met with kindness, intelligence and wisdom by the nation with whom they are in dispute. In any case, fighting will not settle whether the claims were just or unjust. It will only settle which nation can mobilize and handle its fighting forces and its economic forces the better. When the war ends, it will be found that there was an equal amount of "thuggery" practiced on both sides, that terrible things were done to force the final victory. Multitudes of innocent persons will have suffered. The little children of the two countries will be the main victims. Lands will be made desolate. Social progress will be arrested. The poor will be swamped with taxes for an entire generation. The mutilated men will drag out a broken life to the end of their days. A large part of the "facts" used to arouse patriotism and to stir the fervour and the fierceness of the fighting spirit will be discovered to have been "propaganda". And yet not one single thing will have been done to determine where right or justice or truth lay in the issues involved.” Rufus Jones

Rufus Jones makes a good point in that fighting wars never solves problems, and just causes more fighting. How can the Church ever support such as this and still be wedded to Christ?

Jake

 2004/4/20 15:25
rocklife
Member



Joined: 2004/4/1
Posts: 323
usa

 Re:

Jake, the statement "nations aren't thugs" is a lie. Ever heard of Nazi Germany? What about Japan? Look at their history, they went around trying to steal land with violence? Check into any country that practiced genocide (killing its own people). It seems you have not taken a world history class. Check out CNN.com in the World news section, pretty often you will find vicious activity going on sanctioned by governments that don't know what they're doing.

If you do some probing, you will not find "intelligent" people running many countries in history- including recent history. Some people have been psychotic, violence-loving killers.


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Jina

 2004/4/20 15:44Profile
KeithLaMothe
Member



Joined: 2004/3/28
Posts: 354


 Re:

Re: "Nations aren't thugs"

I suppose it depends on how you define "nation." Regardless, I'd generally say that "governments ARE thugs." And who do you have to deal with in the foreign policy context? The people of a nation? To some extent, but to a much greater one you usually have to deal with the government.

Governments are generally composed of people driven by a purpose other than "the common good of all humanity" ("the glory of God" would also be acceptable, but that's probably even rarer). It's usually something like "my good," "the good of my family," "the good of my business/religious/etc. organization," "the good of my city/state/province/district," or "the good of the nation." When the good of others outside the preferred group conflicts with the good of the preferred group, guess what happens?

I could go into examples as to why essentially every government (USA included!) in modern times is "a thug," but I don't suppose it's necessary, just read the news (even the biased media will do).

Either way, this doesn't resolve the matter of whether involvement in military action is consistent with being Christian. I'd like to mention, however, that the only way we're going to get "world peace" in a healthy manner is for God to send world-wide revival to "Christendom" and from there a fairly large number of on-fire Christians as evangelistic vessels to the people groups without Christian backgrounds.

 2004/4/20 16:05Profile









 Re:

Quote:
"nations aren't thugs" is a lie"

Of course, Rufus Jones was speaking of the ideal.

For that matter our own country is involved in war today and in the past because of the bad motives and poor judgement of people who should know better. Our "Christian" president tells us we are fighting this war in Iraq because God told him to. Someone should tell him that the Spirit of the Holy Lord showed the way, died rather than raising an army and fighting the Romans. This was not just a spiritual act upon which our salvation depends, but also an example of righteous pacifism, forgiveness and faith. Jesus knew his suffering would be rewarded.

By defending war and the participation of Christian soldier you argue for the continuance of the system that executed Christ.

Jake

 2004/4/20 16:51
KeithLaMothe
Member



Joined: 2004/3/28
Posts: 354


 Re:

Quote:
Our "Christian" president tells us we are fighting this war in Iraq because God told him to.

I try to like President Bush, and to believe his profession is faith is real, but I've yet to see conclusive evidence. (edited)

However, the only way he can have the Spirit and thus consistently make decisions in line with the heart of our Lord, is that he either be evangelized or revived, two things (as I understand it, correct me if I'm wrong) you say have to wait until after we stop this whole "Christian warrior" business.
Quote:
By defending war and the participation of Christian soldier you argue for the continuance of the system that executed Christ.

That's a very powerful statement, one that may provoke the kind of intense reaction you perhaps desire, but it's a logical fallacy, and a lie. War didn't lead to the execution of Christ, a corrupt government official (more concerned with his own safety and career than with Justice) ordered it at the behest of a misinformed crowd spurred on by corrupt civil and religious leaders. No military action was involved (aside from soldiers involved in arresting, escorting, torturing, and executing Christ, and in so doing were not fulfilling military roles but instead the roles of officers of civil law, albeit within a corrupt system).

 2004/4/20 17:12Profile
rocklife
Member



Joined: 2004/4/1
Posts: 323
usa

 Re:

I don't defend war, I don't understand it enough to know what to say about it. God's plans have included war, and the Bible says there will be wars, and God's future judgment (punishment), seems to be war-like also.
God is in control, God is all in all, God is everything. We are just His creation, He can do whatever He wants. Again, I don't know enough to be able to make any statements about war, I just disagree with some of the statements being made, like- intelligent people are running things (history has proven otherwise, Nazi Germany for example). Personally, I will not be involved in war, I will give my other cheek to be slapped and let my things be stolen, and flee persecution when possible, and seek peace, because Jesus said to do that. I will teach my kid to do the same.

I don't know all the answers of politics. Let's pray for our leaders and enemies more than attack them, in obedience to the New Testament. If you want better leaders, then pray for that and vote for a better leader, that's all you can do. Praise God we can vote for our leaders. Things will be better with Jesus in charge, not in a fallen creation, so just obey and be patient, and pray and be thankful for what you have instead of complain. It could be worse.


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Jina

 2004/4/20 18:17Profile





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