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Discussion Forum : Revivals And Church History : revival? evangelism?

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 revival? evangelism?

Revival? Evangelism?

Several recent posts state that we need a worldwide revival of Christianity. I would offer a cautionary note to this idea. The Gospel of Jesus Christ has been preached far and wide for hundreds, no thousands, of years by many well meaning men and women. Lots of people have been “saved” but the world is still going to “hell in a handbag” to use a crude, but accurate, expression.

Willing “Christian soldiers” are, in my opinion, the hobbling stake that keeps Christianity from taking hold and spreading around the world. That Christ confessing people have taken up arms, no matter what the reason, and gone to war, injures the body of Christ and renders the whole movement subject to deviance. The hypocrisy of people who proclaim the holy Man-servant of the God of love while practicing war and violence shines like a beacon across the world.

Any revival or evangelism movement needs to challenge those who engage in war, levy war taxes, provide funding to arms producers, or in any way support the established worldwide military complex. This is the greatest challenge facing the Church and mankind, as those who support or fail to oppose war are complicit in all the horrors that come with it.

Jesus said that we shall know them by their fruits. Christian soldiers are producing bad fruit indeed. Revival? Evangelism? Christ cannot be advanced through a compromise. And that compromise will remain unspoken and unexamined by faulty Christians, unless those who preach the Gospel of salvation do so in the full light of Jesus’ Love.

“Wait in the measure of the Spirit of God to guide you up to God, and keep you all in peace and unity.” George Fox

Jake

 2004/4/16 11:15
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re: revival? evangelism?

Jake, I strongly disagree with what you say. I am not a fan of war, as nobody should be, but war is something that must exist on this side of glory, and does have its proper place.

There is nothing unbiblical about a Christian participating in war. John the Baptist and Jesus did not demand Roman soldiers quit their day jobs as soldiers. If we must do away with war, we must do away with police as well. Police when put in a position to, are forced to use violent force. So to, when other nations are forced to, must use violent force. Should we as Christians demand police quit their jobs as well, and throw away their fire arms?

There is a time for war (Eccl 3:8)


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Jimmy H

 2004/4/16 12:04Profile









 Re: christians and war

PreachingTOCannibals:

There is a big difference between police and fighting a war. The purpose of the police is to prevent violence. The purpose of war fighting is to commit violence for some ends.

The "time for war" is past, Old Testament! Jesus brought the NEW and preached against war. LOVE your enemies!

For the first three centuries, to follow Jesus meant you could not pay taxes, you could not be a soldier, and you could not fight in the Roman army. Early Christians were martyred because they refused to fight and refused to say that Caesar was God.

Then around the year 313, the emperor said that from now on everyone in the empire was Christian, and overnight, Christians started paying taxes, becoming soldiers, and killing in war, and then they developed complicated theories, like the just war theory, to get around Jesus’ commandment, “love your enemies.”

Jake

 2004/4/16 12:55
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

There is a big difference between police and fighting a war. The purpose of the police is to prevent violence. The purpose of war fighting is to commit violence for some ends.



Some wars are faught as a means to prevent further violence. For example, America bombed Al-quida (spelled?) in reaction to what they did on 9-11, as a means of preventing futher violence. Sometimes war can be a means of being the "international police" (which America is often thought of).

Quote:

The "time for war" is past, Old Testament! Jesus brought the NEW and preached against war. LOVE your enemies!



The teachings of Jesus regarding war (which he never spoke against btw) are ALL found in the Old Testament. The Old Testament recognizes some wars are not good, but at other times, says some are.

Quote:

For the first three centuries, to follow Jesus meant you could not pay taxes, you could not be a soldier, and you could not fight in the Roman army.



Jesus said to pay taxes... render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's. Jesus never told the Centurion soldier to abandon his guard, nor did any other New Testament writer.

Quote:

to get around Jesus’ commandment, “love your enemies.”



Such a teaching was not a new teaching, and is well grounded in Old Testament theology. It can be seen in the law of Moses, the psalms and other wisdom literature, and the prophets. Majority of the teachings of Christ come straight from the pages of the Old Testament.


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Jimmy H

 2004/4/16 17:12Profile









 Re:

Preaching to Cannibals:

I want to respond to this one point now. The rest I will have to deal with later.

You said: "Jesus said to pay taxes... render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's."

Read the passage; Jesus has to ask for a coin; he doesn't carry coins bearing pictures of Caesar, which was a form of idolatry, as Caesar claimed Godhood. Jesus paid no taxes. SO, He renders nothing unto Caesar and is really telling us that we should examine who we owe our allegence to: Caesar or God.

He did not carry a weapon. Gave no physical resistence when arrested. He never voiced support for fighting. The sermon on the mount clarifies his teachings on this.

"Blessed are the peacemakers, For they shall be called sons of God. 10Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, For theirs is the kingdom of heaven. "

Jake

 2004/4/16 17:45
rocklife
Member



Joined: 2004/4/1
Posts: 323
usa

 Re:

I don't have a comment about Christians and wars, I don't know what to say about that.

I have a quick comment about America being "an international police." Guess who exalted themselves to be an international police: America. No one asked them to do that. Many times in history, their involvement has been very unwelcome. My history book says Pres. Teddy Roosevelt and other Presidents thought non-whites were not smart enough and moral enough to take care of themselves and needed white people to watch over them. I don't think anyone is moral enough except God, but the idea of an international police came from racism, not Christian love (that's what College History teaches us).

Then America helps make the U.N. and has rules saying, "everyone has to abide by the U.N.'s decisions." When America doesn't feel like following the U.N.'s decisions, it doesn't comply, just like other countries they accuse of noncompliance, too.

I love America, I'm just pointing out that America's actions haven't always come from a Christian mindset, but God is in control, God controls all the leaders, (even the evil ones). My bible says that, anyway.


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Jina

 2004/4/17 3:23Profile
Delboy
Member



Joined: 2004/2/8
Posts: 199
Worthing UK

 Re: Hobbling stake!

Jake,You have posted this thread in the lounge under the above title.You continue to seek your own agenda and the sound of your own opinion.These sorts of posts are not helpful,Of course this is my opinion,
Stop cherry picking what you want to believe! :-?


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derek Eyre

 2004/4/18 20:17Profile
lazarus
Member



Joined: 2004/4/9
Posts: 61
Connecticut

 Re:

By all means I do not plan on debating whether a christian can fight for his country, friends, and family or not but one statement caught my attention:

Quote "Jesus paid no taxes"

Matthew 19:24-27 says otherwise:
"When they had come to Capernaum, those who recieved the temple tax came to Peter and said "Does your Teacher not pay the temple tax?" He said, "Yes." And when he had come into the house, Jesus anticipated him, saying, 'What do you think, Simon? From whom do the kings of the earth take customs or taxes, from their sons or from strangers?" Peter said to Him, "From strangers." Jesus said to him, "Then the sons are free. Nevertheless, lest we offend them, go to the sea, cast in a hook, and take the fish that comes up first. And when you have opneed its mouth, you will find a piece of money; take that and give it tot them for Me and you."

Rome 13:7 "Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due"

jess


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Jesse

 2004/4/18 22:12Profile





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