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 Re: Dez

you quoted a poster, who was quoting Piper:

Quote:
"the greatest news I have ever heard is that the sins I will commit next monday are already forgiven"!!



and you wrote:

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...what's wrong with this view?



nothing at all, that's why it's called Grace.

But, what happens is that you get a whole group of people, pointing a finger, and they will use the term, "easy-believism".

Usually this crowd will tell you, "STOP SINNING!", to which I say "yes and amen", but easier said than done, because we inhabit this mortal tent, that's why we lean on, rely on, the Provisions and the Atonement of Christ.

Grace.

Now the whole "holiness" thing, the way I see it, is a "works" kind of deal. IF I'm "holy enough", God will love me, God will write my name in the Book of Life. IF I do enough things to make me "holy", if I "stop sinning" God's provisions, that is in Christ, will be made available to me. This premise is conditional, beacuse it's based on what I can DO.

Man can do NOTHING to make HIMSELF "holy", except to FOLLOW Christ, to get under the Blood of the Lamb of God, that's it.

What did Jesus say? "anyone who will not recieve the Kingdom of God like a little child, will never enter it." Because a child has simple faith, unswerving, unquestioning, uncomplicated.

There are many believers in Christ, how many followers?

and what's the Commands that Jesus gave to a follower?

"love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, strength and soul".

"love your neighbor as yourself"

"My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you."

Now I don't know the Greek in this 15th chapter of John, but i strongly suspect that Jesus used the word, Agape, which as I'm sure you know is unconditional, non-agenda, selfless love.

Hence, you want to know why the church is so hopelessly divided and totally irrelevant to most Europeans and North Americans?

Because A. we don't model servanthood as exemplified by agape love to each other, let alone the great masses and their darkened minds, alone, frightened, in bondage to death and decay, chasing the idols of the 21st century. and
B. we don't even love each other, and this grievous trait is underlined by the constant backbiting and devouring of one another, by the constant theo-tussling that goes on within the Body of Christ, as well as the pharisaical beating of the chest, "I'm right, you're wrong" nonsense that passes itself off as "discernment".

But it's all okay, because at last glance within my soul, I still KNOW that God is in control, and when men who's life was spent shrieking at folks over a bullhorn about their certain deathspin into a fiery hell, one day, God's going to be facing that person at the Judgement Bar, and asking the same question He asked in the Matthew 25 "sheeps and goats" passage.

Why devour Piper? Why backbite? why divide?

I'm not asking you this Dez, I'm just asking the question to the group, or anyone who reads this, why?

Love one another deeply, and that could be the saints, fellow followers of Jesus, or that could be the bum, yoked up by alcohol, that could be the tiny Philipino child living on a handful of rice, that could be the transvestite prostitute, HIV infected, "on the stroll"....what makes us different? what makes us "peculiar"?

that the least is the greatest, that the first is the last, and by witness, "look how they love one another".

Bashing Piper isnt love, proclaiming that one is a "five point Calvinist" isn't love, proclaiming the ills and foulness of those in the Roman Catholic church who love Jesus isn't love, it's theo-babble, it's a sideshow, it's diversion from the true intent of the Gospel, the Good News that the Kingdom of God is near.

and that's where we find ourselves today, hopelessly divided, ineffectual, and irrellevant, but I have faith, that Jesus is coming back and going to make it right.

 2007/6/28 13:22
Nile
Member



Joined: 2007/3/28
Posts: 403
Raleigh, NC

 Re:

lovegrace,

Quote:
That's the point. God isn't someone to run away from instead He is someone to run towards to.



Sinners do not love God. They can't. The flesh cannot serve or love God. Any image of God that appeals to everyone in the world is false. God is not loved by sinners. They do not love His righteousness, His holiness, His justice, His humility, His mercy, His grace, and many other things. If I go to work and tell my co-worker who is unsaved (but believes himself saved) that God is completely holy and hates foul language (which my co-worker uses) then he will get angry. If I tell my co-worker that God is all-powerful and He can do such and such then he will nod and say, "Yeah, amazing!" Both things are true. That is not the point. The point is that if I leave out one thing,or emphasize another thing too much, a wrong view of God is conveyed.

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I believe this is biblical evangelism.



Regardless of whether it is or not, Piper is primarily teaching to church members and not evangelizing.

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Because today we hear 'turn or burn' but there is no grace or love or humility in their preaching.



I have not heard any preachers on SermonIndex that preach this way. They are all loving and humble, but still firm and uncompromising. It doesn't have to be "either or."

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Revival by too many on this website, and I try to say this with as much love as possible, is making people feel like crap. In other words, Revival in many people's mind is doing the work of God without God.



Really, I don't know why you say this. Can you give some sermons which promote this view?

Quote:
This sounds like an 'escapism' belief. Christ doesn't call the healthy but the sick. Don't forget that non-believers don't go to church, they go to worldly event.



Are you referring to evangelizing at wordly events? I wasn't referring to that at all.
You can't save the men from the world if your not saved from it yourself.

Quote:
But about the 'entertainment' side of things. If the kingdom of God is part joy and it's within you (Luke 17:21). Then, with those two things. Don't you think that their can be joy anywhere? I believe God likes laughter and joy, if not then why would He say the kingdom is joy (Rom. 14:17)?



Right...joy and laughter is not the same thing as entertainment.

Quote:
Oh, and Lord of the Rings wasn't founded secular. It was an allegory about Christ. The ring symbolizes sin. It's easy to talk about Christ when you have something someone can relate to (John 4).



Er, this is absolutely wrong brother. It's a secular fairy tale by a man who lived a secular life.

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If you think people 'liking' believers is "wrong" sorry but that idea isn't biblical.



It is good for non-believers to like believers.
It is bad for non-believers to adamantly love the teaching of a believer. This shows that something is definitely missing/wrong in the teaching.

Thanks for the comments, I hope will we sharpen each other as iron sharpens iron.

"Thank you Father for this beautiful day."
:-)
Nile


_________________
Matthew Miskiewicz

 2007/6/28 20:06Profile
Nile
Member



Joined: 2007/3/28
Posts: 403
Raleigh, NC

 Re:

Ben,

Perhaps I should have elaborated on what I meant by "entertainment"!

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Entertainment #1: Entertainment becomes an idol. The person spends the majority of his time or life filling his mind and heart with lusts of the flesh that consume him (i.e. television, movies, bars, concerts, clubs, sports games, etc.) so much so that it essentially (or totally) replaces God. This certianly is the wrong form of entertainment for anyone, including Christians, to have.

Entertainment #2: Celebrating, or having fun in moments of life that create memories and wonderful fellowship experiences, whether it is between the individual and God, or the individual and others.



Yes, I totally understand what your saying, but...

Quote:
...The person spends the [b]majority of his time or life[/b] filling his mind and heart with lusts of the flesh that consume him (i.e. television, movies, bars, concerts, clubs, sports games, etc.) [b]so much so that it essentially (or totally) replaces God[/b].



Many believe this is where the line is drawn, but I do not think so. Indulging in the flesh one tiny bit is horrible. You can lie once a week and not be consumed by it. You can steal once a month and not be consumed by it. You can masturbate once a month and not be consumed by it. Likewise, you can indulge in selfish entertainment every now and then and not be consumed by it. That makes it no less wrong.

Any entertainment that does not directly glorify God is wrong. Paul tells us to glorify God while eating and drinking and in all things - why is being entertained an exception to the rule?
If our entertainment distracts us from God or diverts our attention from the heavenly realm, it is not good.

Indulging in this escapist entertainment is wrong.

Entertainment that is selfish and does not seek the will of God is wrong. How many people are there that can say, "God is telling me to watch this sports game." "God is telling me to play this video game." "God is telling me to go boating." "God is telling me to read this science fiction novel." "God is telling me to go to YouTube." "God is telling me to post on Sermon Index."

So you see, I am not against entertainment, I am against ungodly entertainment - no matter the quantity.

Also, I did not come up with this view, I was taught it by godly men like A.W.Tozer, Zac Poonen, Paul Washer, Leonard Ravenhill, Charles Finney, ect. This view of entertainment has been the standard for Christians throughout history, until recently. (generally speaking)

Quote:
Nile, you cannot deny the fact that there were certian forms of entertainment throughout Scripture. There was feasting, dancing, drinking, singing, and I'm sure other forms that I'm just not thinking about right now. Think upon the parable of the prodigal son, spoken to the people by Jesus himself. The father of the prodigal son entertained his son by celebrations of a feast, eating a fat calf, singing and music, and dancing.



Just a side-note...do you know of any place where God condoned dancing?

Nile


_________________
Matthew Miskiewicz

 2007/6/28 20:23Profile
BenBrockway
Member



Joined: 2006/5/31
Posts: 427


 Re:

Quote:

Nile wrote:
Quote:
Nile, you cannot deny the fact that there were certian forms of entertainment throughout Scripture. There was feasting, dancing, drinking, singing, and I'm sure other forms that I'm just not thinking about right now. Think upon the parable of the prodigal son, spoken to the people by Jesus himself. The father of the prodigal son entertained his son by celebrations of a feast, eating a fat calf, singing and music, and dancing.



Just a side-note...do you know of any place where God condoned dancing?

Nile



**OOPS** I submitted waaay too soon... lol

NILE, you sort of answered your own question. Jesus condoned dancing in the parable HE gave about the prodigal son.

Also, David danced naked in the streets unto the Lord.

Again, if you read my earlier posts, you will see feasts and festivals where dancing has been occuring for thousands of years, even at the parties Jesus were at.

These are just a few examples, but dancing is not a forbidden thing or a sin, as far as the Lord is concerned. I can't see God forbidding dancing in his presence once we enter the gates.

My point overall is that some entertainment is ok. If you want to bring Leonard Ravenhill into the picture, you should know that he has watched t.v. and even listened to the radio. I believe A.W. Tozer even did some of the same, as well, if I remember correctly.

Remember, everything is permissable, but not everything is beneficial...

Please understand that I'm not condoning every form of entertainment, but you can't throw EVERYTHING out.
**I want to make another edit and clarify that I don't mean that all forms of dancing are ok, but when it is done unto the Lord, I don't see how the Lord could look down upon that. Are you also saying that it would be a sin to dance with my wife. Is that a horrendous sinful form of passion I can't have while I am enjoying the company of my wife?

Again, it seems just a tad legalistic to me.

 2007/6/28 21:53Profile
BenBrockway
Member



Joined: 2006/5/31
Posts: 427


 Re:

Quote:

Nile wrote:
lovegrace,



Sinners do not love God. They can't. The flesh cannot serve or love God. Any image of God that appeals to everyone in the world is false. God is not loved by sinners. They do not love His righteousness, His holiness, His justice, His humility, His mercy, His grace, and many other things.
Nile



Umm.... so, I'm guessing Nile that you are perfect and void of all sin?

Or, would you consider yourself a sinner?

If I remember correctly... if someone can please help me here, because, I could be completely out of touch with reality, but are we not all sinners? I'm trying to remember one person in Scripture that WAS NOT a sinner... wasn't Jesus the only one NOT a sinner? Correct me if I'm wrong.

I sin and I love His righteousness, His holiness, His justice, His humility, His mercy, His grace, and many other things.

 2007/6/28 22:22Profile
Nile
Member



Joined: 2007/3/28
Posts: 403
Raleigh, NC

 Re:

Brother Ben, I was honestly asking about the dancing - it wasn't an attack or anything! I have heard that God never condoned dancing and was curious if you knew of any times when He did. I know about David, but there is the argument that it was of wrong of him to dance like he did (his wife rebukes him). Aside from David, do you know of any times? I do not believe the feasts actually mention dancing, but I could be wrong. (Again, just mentioning it isn't enough, I want to know if God condoned it. Just like God allowed marriage and slavery, but He does not like those things.) I hadn't thought of that parable before, so thanks for pointing it out to me.

Quote:
My point overall is that some entertainment is ok.



My point is that only godly entertainment is ok.
No other kind of entertainment is ever ok.

Quote:
Umm.... so, I'm guessing Nile that you are perfect and void of all sin?



I never said anything like that.

Quote:
Or, would you consider yourself a sinner?



I do sin, yes. I have a sin nature, yes. If I am saved though, I am not a sinner. That is how the Bible uses the word and that is how I will use it.

Quote:
If I remember correctly... if someone can please help me here, because, I could be completely out of touch with reality, but are we not all sinners? I'm trying to remember one person in Scripture that WAS NOT a sinner... wasn't Jesus the only one NOT a sinner? Correct me if I'm wrong.



Your confusing being perfect with being a sinner. This isn't how scripture uses the word. Consider the proverbs; how many times does it refer to the righteous and the sinner? Do you mean to tell me that all of us are the sinner in the proverbs and no one on Earth has ever been the righteous man but Jesus? A quick read of some proverbs will show what I mean. Also you might read 1 John, it talks a lot about sin and Christians. Try Ezekiel 18 too: "The righteous man is saved because of his righteousness."

Quote:
I sin and I love His righteousness, His holiness, His justice, His humility, His mercy, His grace, and many other things.



As do I :-)

Nile


_________________
Matthew Miskiewicz

 2007/6/28 22:58Profile
BenBrockway
Member



Joined: 2006/5/31
Posts: 427


 Re:

Nile,

My apologies for coming off a little strong. Read 2 Samuel 6:14-23 and tell me what you think about David dancing before the Lord, and whether it was right or wrong.

Where in Scripture does God say that He doesn't like marriage?????

Genesis 1 - 26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27So [b]God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. [/b]

28[b]And God blessed them,[/b] and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

29And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

30And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

31[b]And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.[/b]

**edit**

I don't think God is against marriage if he created it! Why would he compare our marriages as husband and wife with that of Jesus longing for a spotless bride, if God didn't condone marriage?

 2007/6/28 23:42Profile
HopePurifies
Member



Joined: 2007/4/12
Posts: 181
Georgia, USA

 Re:

Hey Ben,

My friend Nile is taking a break from sermonindex because he is spending time with God.

Nile and I plan to get married in the future. Therefore, I'm pretty sure then that when he said marriage he meant divorce.... XD

I just wanted to clear that up for him haha.

Hehe, I bet you thought he was bonkers!

Anyways, we can all use being forgiven for the times we aren't Christ-like. It sure is tough to talk about the teachings of people without getting our feathers ruffled! I think that I can safely say that most on this thread, whether supporting Piper or not supporting Piper, are trying to protect, support, and love one another! Love hopes that anyway. Let's remember that when we disagree. :-)

Piper does condone entertainments that I don't see fitting in the Christian life. But I still read the Desiring God weekly emails, and they are pretty cool to me. But hey, we gotta exercise discernment no matter who we listen to! I'm definitely more inclined to pick up Tozer rather than Piper because of the differences we have, but yeah, let the Holy Spirit guide you and you'll be alright. ^_^ You've got quite a lot of good advice to weigh in this thread. God's peace to you all!


_________________
Melanie

 2007/6/30 1:43Profile
deltadom
Member



Joined: 2005/1/6
Posts: 1792
Hemel Hempstead

 Re:

Quote:
Am I the only one who is deeply concerned about Pipers increasing popularity? Is it because of the state of the Church today that a preacher who says such things can become so influential?



I used to like John Piper alot because he liked writers like Jonathan Edwards, I was concerned when he jumped onto the Passion of Christ bandwagon.

It is like he changed his writings to suit the popular views of today.
I do not find this true with his older books.
This is what I find so damaging is when people change there views to suit the times rather than people having to change to god standards.


_________________
Dominic Shiells

 2007/6/30 5:07Profile
DezCall
Member



Joined: 2004/7/9
Posts: 315
The Netherlands

 Re:

Brother Dom,

You are in your right to have an opinion about John Piper. Anyone, of course, may have his or her opinion. However, the statements you made in your post are pretty strong and left unexplained.

I would kindly ask you to elaborate a little more on your statements as without explanation and reasonable arguments we are in danger of painting a picture of someone, (in this case: John Piper) that does not correspond to the actual truth.

Quote:
I was concerned when he jumped onto the Passion of Christ bandwagon



What do you mean by this?

Quote:
It is like he changed his writings to suit the popular views of today.



Could you give some examples of this?

Please, beloved brothers and sisters...let us be careful in the 'pictures we paint', because they will leave an impression. And when we make statements, let's back them up with reasonable arguments. And maybe we can learn a lesson here from Oswald Chambers:

Never water down the Word of God, but preach it in its undiluted sternness. There must be unflinching faithfulness to the Word of God, but when you come to personal dealings with others, remember who you are - you are not some special being created in heaven, but a sinner saved by grace.
(From: My Utmost for His Highest, June 28)

In Christ,

Paul


_________________
Paul

 2007/6/30 7:42Profile





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