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jordanamo
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Joined: 2006/11/23
Posts: 397


 Re:

I haven't read any of his books but I'm pretty skeptical of his [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Hedonism]"Christian Hedonism"[/url]

It's sort of like creating a term "Christian Adultery" and saying "leaving the world.. that's what we're referring to!"... the connotations of Hedonism should've shunned Piper from using such a word, it's just ridiculous in my view.

 2007/6/26 17:03Profile
HomeFree89
Member



Joined: 2007/1/21
Posts: 797
Indiana

 Re:

I'm not Calvinistic, but I do like his books. Two that are really good are, Let the Nations Be Glad and Don't Waste Your Life.

Jordan


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Jordan

 2007/6/26 17:12Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
I haven't read any of his books but I'm pretty skeptical of his "Christian Hedonism"



Maybe you should read what he means by it before casting doubts upon it. What he means is simply that the Christian should seek all pleasure, joy, satisfaction in God alone, through Christ alone.

Soteriology is an important thing to familiarize yourself with as it will give an uprecedented joy in God because He has saved any of us. To know and understand the Scriptural way He does this will leave your jaw on the floor along with much of your pride. Consider that we were all as an unclean thing before Him, but Christ...(I'll let you fill this in :)

Too many do not study the doctrines of sovereign grace and yet declare themsleves to be fit to dismiss them. It is sad really, because many times these are the same ones that think that the Church started when Finney arived, or when Wesley lived. Oh well, all I can say is brethren know what you are arguing against or mocking before you say anything,(I used to do this very thing too, so I understand) and that will carry much more weight in the discussion. ;-)


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patrick heaviside

 2007/6/26 17:26Profile
lovegrace
Member



Joined: 2006/8/12
Posts: 313


 Re:

Quote:

jordanamo wrote:
I haven't read any of his books but I'm pretty skeptical of his [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Hedonism]"Christian Hedonism"[/url]

It's sort of like creating a term "Christian Adultery" and saying "leaving the world.. that's what we're referring to!"... the connotations of Hedonism should've shunned Piper from using such a word, it's just ridiculous in my view.



Not really.

Piper invented a new term. "Finding your Joy and Delight in God = Christian Hedonism"

I'd recommend that you'd actually listen to his messages instead of judging him before his time. You'll be doing yourself a diservice if you don't at least 'test the waters' and listen to maybe one message or so.

I say this because he in no way promotes sin. He premotes God and loving God with your entire being (heart, mind, body, soul, and strength).

Some messages he is very confrontational about 'not trusting God enough'. And 'staying rooted in the Word'.

Although he did create a 'controversial term' but it was to probably keep people on their toes (I don't know exactually why but it's an awesome concept; just like 'practice of the presense of God')

Be blessed.

Quote:
Mike Balog wrote:Even John Calvin isn't Calvinisitc enough for some of his followers.



Haha. Amen brother!

 2007/6/26 17:33Profile
theopenlife
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Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 926


 Re:

Quote:
theopenlife I don't understand two comments. Maybe you can take a moment to explain. You said, "some consider Piper Catholic in disguise i.e., "saved by faith through grace." Don't Catholics believe the antithesis of that--saved by works.




In Catholicism, part of the 'works' necessary to salvation includes maintaining faith in Christ and the Church throughout life.

Don't mistake me; I believe that the bible teaches all Christians [b]must[/b] remain in faith through their lives if they are to appear blameless in heaven, but it is like this: One person says, 'a bird must flap its wings to fly.' Another says, 'a bird will fly because it is a bird flapping its wings!'

And so the Catholic spirit is that faith is an action springing from out of the old nature. The contrasting view is that faith comes from God, after regeneration. The regeneration itself, and the work of the Spirit, causes us to comply with faith and remain in faith.

Again, the bible teaches that [b]by necessity of regeneration[/b], God's elect will freely choose to remain in faith. Often they are helped by the Spirit to remain in faith by difficult passages of the bible, passages that stand out clearly when they themselves are distracted by some temptation.

But the fact is, they remain in faith because they are justified; not justified because they remain in faith.

Catholics teach the opposite, making faith into a work. I recommend others to read Martin Luther's preface to the Epistle to the Romans. He does better than I have to communicate this.

[url=http://www.ccel.org/l/luther/romans/pref_romans.html]Preface to the Epistle to the Romans[/url]

So, all of this is to say that some people view Piper as teaching that God [b]chose people because He foresaw their lifelong faith[/b], rather than that He [b] unconditionally elected them and granted abundant faith all their lives. This hangs well within salvation-by-self, as many view it.

What is Soteriology? As defined on bible.org,

Quote:
The term “soteriology” comes from two Greek terms, namely, soter meaning “savior” or “deliverer” and logos meaning “word,” “matter,” or “thing.” In Christian systematic theology it is used to refer to the study of the biblical doctrine of salvation. It often includes such topics as the nature and extent of the atonement as well as the entire process of salvation, conceived as an eternal, divine plan designed to rescue lost and erring sinners and bring them back into eternal fellowship with God. Many regard it as the primary theme in Scripture with the glory of God as its goal.



As for Christian Hedonism... hedonism can be defined as "the doctrine that pleasure or happiness is the highest good," in which case Piper infers that "Christian Hedonism" is a belief that taking pleasure in God's glorification is the highest good."

I agree with the idea, but I'm pretty sure there was already a term for it... "Biblical Christianity", I think it's called. ;-)

Without doubt it is a response by Piper against self-help, humanistic, 'purpose driven' theology.

 2007/6/26 18:19Profile
caldwell1
Member



Joined: 2006/11/24
Posts: 61
Rockland MA

 Re:

Quote from "the open life":So, all of this is to say that some people view Piper as teaching that God chose people because He foresaw their lifelong faith, rather than that He [b] unconditionally elected them and granted abundant faith all their lives. This hangs well within salvation-by-self, as many

Hi Can you help me understand this?,It seems to me if Dr. Piper believes that "God chose people because He forsaw thier lifelong faith" that maybe it is a work on the persons part to be saved or it was'nt unconditional election.I.E. God chose them because they chose Him.I don't know if I understood His statement.Please bear with me,I understood that your average Calvinist Chritian believed that God regenerates the person and of course faith follows along for life and that God's election was based solely on "His good pleasure" and not necessarily based on the person.What I need to know is what Dr Piper believes about this.I will try to check his site for a sermon on God's Election.again please help me understand as I am not scholarly and just a regular guy trying to see Jesus
Thank you again
Brian


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brian

 2007/6/26 19:55Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Hey caldwell,
I would like to answer your question, but I am not sure about what you are asking.

I don't think Piper would say anything about God choosing someone based on foreseen faith as that flies in the face of Scripture, as well as being contrary to the Reformed or Calvinistic view of God's predestination of people.

If you could give me an idea of where Piper said this it would be great, otherwise it would just be hearsay, and hard to validate.

Blessings to you in Christ's name :-D


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patrick heaviside

 2007/6/26 20:29Profile
Nile
Member



Joined: 2007/3/28
Posts: 403
Raleigh, NC

 Re: Dr. John Piper

Brian,

I am very cautious as I write this. I no doubt step out on a limb...but I will give my opinion for what it is worth, and you, through the Holy Spirit and God's word, decide for yourself.

I'm not sure how to go about saying this...but I (and others I know) do see problems with Piper. Let me say also that I have read multiple books by Piper, have listened to sermons by him, have some dvd's by him, and have attended a church that he hepled plant. I am friends with pastor of said church, who attended the Bethlehem theological college and lived with Piper for two years. So I'm very familiar with his stuff.

The main thing is this:

[u]Piper equates the glory of the world to the glory of God.[/u]

This is part the message being preached:
"Have you ever witnessed a last second winning shot in basketball? It's glorious isn't it! And if you love that, you love God...because He is even more glorious!"
"Have you ever seen the Two Towers? When Gandalf comes over the hill to save the day, it's just amazing! Why, it's sends chills up your spine it's so glorious! And to think, all of that was created in some movie studio - imagine how glorious God is!" [He uses that example. Try the same argument but with the Matrix and you'll see how bad it is if you don't already.]
"The olympics are just astounding! The things those people can do - wow. When I see the olympics, I just think of how glorious God is."

John 2:15-16
Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

By using examples like these and others, John Piper appeals directly to the pride of life that exists in all sinners. If I explain God to anyone as John Piper does in examples like these, there is no one on Earth who would reject God! [b]All sinner loves that thrilling last second shot and all sinner loves Gandalf who wields a sword and hacks down his enemies in battle - but no sinner loves Jesus who humbled Himself to the point of death, even death on cross, and commanded others to do the same.[/b] This is an irreconcialible fact.
Also, Piper has lower standards than I believe is right...others will disagree...but entertainment has no place in the life of Christian. Especialy not secular movies like Lord of the Rings or secular events like football and basketball games. I don't see how Christians can enjoy watching unbelievers pridefully compete with each other while getting paid millions of dollars to do so... Piper also approves of rap music, which I think is erroneous (which I say based on much research and on much firsthand experience).

Lastly, ask yourself this question: Why is John Piper so popular? My unrepentent family members like him. Teenagers I know living in sin like him. Churches who teach easy-believism like him. I liked him before I was saved. In fact, I have yet to meet someone who doesn't like John Piper. This does not automatically discredit him, but it does make me seriously question his teaching.

One more thing, not all of Piper's teaching is bad...but who has 100% bad teaching? Not even the Devil has 100% bad teaching (he quoted true scriptures to Jesus).

I have tried to explain my thoughts, but have likely done poorly...please ask questions if you're confused.

God give us wisdom,
Nile


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Matthew Miskiewicz

 2007/6/26 20:53Profile
Nile
Member



Joined: 2007/3/28
Posts: 403
Raleigh, NC

 Re: Dr. John Piper

Also Brian, in case you didn't know, you can most of Piper's sermons, articles, and even books for free on his site www.desiringgod.org

Nile


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Matthew Miskiewicz

 2007/6/26 20:56Profile
caldwell1
Member



Joined: 2006/11/24
Posts: 61
Rockland MA

 Re:

Thanks
I took that quote from "The open life's" post before my last post.And I'm not sure where our friend got it from,but It did'nt make sense to me or probably i misinterpreted it.I'm looking at his article "What we believe about the Five Points of Calvinism"(Fron his desiring God website)and it does'nt appear that He would say that.Yet I am satisfied with His interpretations from this article.I'm glad your with me "roaring lamb" as it did'nt seem Dr. Piper believes that way,again baby steps with me as I am enjoying these biblical teachings with my heart and head
Love in Christ
Brian :-)


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brian

 2007/6/26 21:04Profile





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