SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Image Map
Discussion Forum : Articles and Sermons : Five Reasons Why Many Believers Are Not Spirit Baptized - Poonen

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( 1 | 2 Next Page )
PosterThread
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Five Reasons Why Many Believers Are Not Spirit Baptized - Poonen

If you are only interested in going to heaven when you die, you don't need to be baptized in the Holy Spirit. You only need to have your sins forgiven. But if you want to spend your earthly days usefully, showing your gratitude to the Lord for dying for you, by serving Him, then you MUST be filled with the Holy Spirit.

There are FIVE main reasons why many believers are NOT baptized in the Holy Spirit:

(1) They have been INTELLECTUALLY CONVINCED by some theological argument that they were baptized in the Spirit when they were born again. And even though they are defeated, powerless, empty and fruitless, they continue to believe this theological deception.


(2) They feel that they are NOT WORTHY ENOUGH to receive the baptism in the Holy Spirit. The fact of the matter is that the more unworthy you feel and the greater the sinner you consider yourself to be, the more fit you are to receive the Holy Spirit - because God's gifts are given only to those who feel themselves most unworthy to receive them. If you have repented of your sins, it doesn't matter how unworthy or unfit or useless you are. Hallelujah!


(3) They DON'T BELIEVE that God is a good God - who gives His gifts freely to all who ask Him. They feel that they have to pay a price - do some good deeds, like fasting and praying, before they can receive. But God's gifts are all freely given - whether it be the forgiveness of sins or the baptism in the Spirit. None of God's gifts can be purchased. Many believers feel that to have faith itself, is a difficult thing. But Jesus likened faith to drinking (See John 7:37,38, "...DRINK.... BELIEVE"). To receive the Holy Spirit is as easy as drinking. Even babies know how to drink - and those who are newly born again can be baptized with the Holy Spirit. That is how it was in the early days - as we read in the "Acts of the Apostles".


(4) They DON'T THIRST. They are not desperate enough. Jesus spoke a parable of a man who kept on knocking at his neighbour's door, UNTIL HE RECEIVED what he wanted. Then Jesus went on to say that our Heavenly Father would also give the Holy Spirit to those who asked, sought and knocked like that man (Read Luke 11:13 in the context of the previous verses, beginning at v.5).


(5) They WAIT FOR SOME EXPERIENCE (tongues or thrills etc., ) similar to the one they heard someone else testify to. They are not willing to leave it to God to decide what gift or manifestation is best for them to have. The Holy Spirit is received by simple faith. Ask and ye shall receive (Gal.3:2; Luke 11:9-13). Don't wait for feelings. But ask God to give you an assurance. Leave it to Him as to how He gives you that assurance. Didn't He give you an assurance that your sins are forgiven and that you are His child? In the same way, He can also assure you that He has filled you with the Holy Spirit. What you need is not an experience, but POWER (Acts 1:8).

- Zac Poonen


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2007/6/24 17:00Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4794


 Re: Five Reasons Why Many Believers Are Not Spirit Baptized - Poonen

If I may add one more...

We don't feed on the bread of Life, day by day. All other manifestations are the result of not hearing the word of God.

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2007/6/24 18:13Profile
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re: Five Reasons Why Many Believers Are Not Spirit Baptized - Poonen

paul west, you said a mouthfull there. This info i am sure will be very helpfull to some.
I live in "Roloff" country where Lester Roloff ministries is. Many here prob. never heard of him.
I believe he could be one of the greatest men of God that ever lived[in my opinion].He was a baptist preacher that died in a plane crash in the mid eightys.
A friend of mine,Tom, was a member of his church back in the fifties.He went to some penticostal meetings and got the Baptism of the Holy Spirit!
He was totally beside himself.[It is a truly awesome,awesome experience} Anyway as time went on Tom was torn between churches.The one he loved vs the one that "made room" for the Holy Spirit. He knew God was calling him beyond the confines of the baptist church. And he knew the inevitable confrontation with bro. Roloff was necissary. {you could meet with bro. Roloff unannouncrd.] He did and told bro. Roloff what had happened.He thought bro. roloff was going to give him the third degree.[back then toungues,manifistations andanything penticostal was of the devil.{by bptist standards].
Bro. Roloff said to him"son I am going to tell you something,any thing you get and you know it is from God dont let me or anyone else stop you.But just remember one thing, I am still your pastor!
That to me is really something, that a man that had to have been effected by the misinformation and many many misconceptions about the Baptism of the holy spirit, could see it was God moving on Tommys life.
.......David

 2007/6/24 20:34Profile
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re: Fruit and Gifts

Quote:
paul west, you said a mouthfull there



Greetings, David. I'd like to start by just making sure you know this is Zac Poonen's writings and not mine own. Are you familiar with his wonderful ministry?

Quote:
I live in "Roloff" country where Lester Roloff ministries is. Many here prob. never heard of him.



I've heard of Lester Roloff, of course. He has a radio show here in Texas; the theme song for the show is "By the Shores of Blue Galilee" and the brother can certainly preach! Old school style. Powerful repentance and blood preaching, and he wasn't afraid of the faces of men. Many of his messages dealt with controversial issues that modern Christianity had sadly embraced.

Quote:
Bro. Roloff said to him"son I am going to tell you something,any thing you get and you know it is from God dont let me or anyone else stop you.But just remember one thing, I am still your pastor!



Reading this put a little smile on my face. I've got a dear friend who was a Baptist youth pastor here in my city. We would talk often about the Holy Spirit, and about how he understood the role of the Third Person of the Trinity and about how I, as a Pentecostal, did. But there was never any tension between us; our conversations were always graciously foundationed on brotherly love and mutual respect. We even street-preached together, prayed together, and he would allow me lay hands and pray in tongues over his ministry and marriage.

I introduced him to David Wilkerson's ministry, and also to Brother Ravenhill's. I showed him who I thought were the fakes and money gluttons and false teachers in the Charismatic movement. In the end, he really began to hunger for more of God, and pray about if perhaps the Baptism of the Holy Spirit could be for him too.

He eventually mentioned this to his pastor, and his pastor said some pretty disparaging things about what Pentecostals believe in. He warned him to say away from ungodly influences such as myself, to stop listening to Wilkerson, and even advised him to cancel his subscription to Dave Wilkerson's Times Square Church Pulpit newsletter. But by this time, my friend had already attended some of my church services and had heard me preach under the anointing. He was amazed and hungry!

He has since left his Baptist fellowship over a holiness issue, and he now attends a house church. He has heard enough reputable preachers and men who walk with God teach on being filled with Holy Spirit, and it is no longer an issue.

I have discovered the best way to prove Spirit Baptism to a non-filled believer is to demonstrate the Baptism through the fruit and not the gifts. Gifts can be counterfeited, but the fruit gives no uncertain sound. Real fruit speaks volumes...and when the genuine gifts accompany the fruit, there is no denying God's craftmanship in the walk of the believer. Again, as in another thread, I must repeat:

Balance, balance, [i]balance[/i].

Brother Paul


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2007/6/24 21:10Profile
letsgetbusy
Member



Joined: 2004/9/28
Posts: 957
Cleveland, Georgia

 Re:

Poonen's words are right on the mark.


_________________
Hal Bachman

 2007/7/6 1:35Profile









 Re:

If some of the former posts about the baptism of the Holy Spirit could answer my questions on this subject with scripture passages I would be grateful. First let me say I think the Southern Baptist Convention of which I am a member was in error when they passed the resolutions about not speaking in tongues because it says, "forbid not". I do not have a prayer language. 1 Cor 14:3-5
4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. 5 I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified.

I am assuming when ones refers to the baptism of the Holy Spirit one is talking about being more mature in the spirit because it plainly says 1 Cor 14:3-5
4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. 5 I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified.
Rom 8:9
Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
KJV
1.Is it a growing or a greater measure of the Spirit than just merely possessing the Spirit of Christ?
2.How does one obtain the baptism you are referring to?
3.Can you lose the baptism once you receive it?
4 Does one continual retain the baptism 24-7?
5. Is it possible for the person with the baptism to commit a sin while he filled with it?
If someone could answer these questions it would help me.


 2007/7/7 14:09
Ekklesia1
Member



Joined: 2006/12/10
Posts: 14


 Re: Five Reasons Why Many Believers Are Not Spirit Baptized - Poonen

Quote:
(1) They have been INTELLECTUALLY CONVINCED by some theological argument that they were baptized in the Spirit when they were born again. And even though they are defeated, powerless, empty and fruitless, they continue to believe this theological deception.


Fairly amusing.
Thats exactly what I believe and I doubt theres a single person who know me, including the charismatics and holiness people I know, who would call me 'defeated, powerless, empty or fruitless'. If anything Ive been told Im far to zealous and too 'on fire' for my own good.

Are you sure you have your facts straight?

I will add tho, that the christians Ive seen that were caught up in the worst sin imaginable have pretty much all been pushers of spirit baptism still being a separate thing. Odd huh? ;)

 2007/7/9 20:52Profile
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
I doubt theres a single person who know me, including the charismatics and holiness people I know, who would call me 'defeated, powerless, empty or fruitless'. If anything Ive been told Im far to zealous and too 'on fire'



The very fact that you would contest the Baptism in the Holy Spirit by publically broadcasting [i]how others praise you[/i] speaks volumes, brother.


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2007/7/9 21:04Profile
allhavsinned
Member



Joined: 2005/8/1
Posts: 201
North West England

 Re:

Quote:

moe_mac wrote:
1.Is it a growing or a greater measure of the Spirit than just merely possessing the Spirit of Christ?
2.How does one obtain the baptism you are referring to?
3.Can you lose the baptism once you receive it?
4 Does one continual retain the baptism 24-7?
5. Is it possible for the person with the baptism to commit a sin while he filled with it?
If someone could answer these questions it would help me.




1)we don't get more of the Spirit, He gets more of us! we mature by becoming more obedient to His Spirit. allowing Him to work through us

2)see posts above

3)well, you lose the closeness of Him, you move away from His prescence, start doing things in your own strength, like being in a river and swimming out of the current.

4)again it's us that causes the Spirit to be less effective or noticible in our lives as we start trusting too much in ourselves.

5)Yes, we retain full control of ourselves (so when people say they laugh uncontrollably it's not the Spirit), one fruit is Self Control, we still have a choice to disobey His guidance

I hope this helps, BTW I have never had the baptism so the above is only my understanding not my experience, I've been told I've got it (Him), and I have preached and known that God was speaking through me, but the anointing is different, I have seen my brother preach and it's noticable when the Spirit falls on Him, he really does BURN!

Of the 5 original reasons I guess I'm guilty of (2) I still think God's waiting for me to be a better Christian, though I know it's wrong to think like that
and (4) I want the anointing but I'm not willing to thirst for it, a couple of nights ago I went up to an altar call and the pastor said to us all (you stay here until you get the Holy Spirit), I left after about 5 minutes, I've been up so many times, sometimes I've waited, sometimes I didn't but I'm always empty and I always blame myself- it's not God's fault, He want's me filled but I'm stopping the process somehow.

Before I pour my heart out, I'll leave it there.

Ste


_________________
Ste

 2007/7/12 23:44Profile









 Re:

Thanks for all the comments and the attempts to answer my questions. Although they were helpful comments I couldn’t help but notice the lack of scriptural references in the answers. It is very hard to give a rebuttal to something without the WORD being used to discuss the question about the WORD. There was some reference to other men’s ministries. Do I doubt the power of God? DO I doubt tongues, no, do I believe in the gifts yes. He gives them as he sees fit. No, I believe he can do anything that is needed to bring HIM glory. I see everyday that there are people that are fuller of HIS SPIRIT than others. Is it obedience that brings that fullness of HIS SPIRIT in their lives? What is the factor? I will attempt to give scripture references to the questions I ask and to the question at hand. I would welcome any comments especially those that are combined with HIS WORD.

Acts 1:7-8
8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."
The greatest evidence in this verse is that they become witnesses for HIM and HIS saving grace. Can you imagine how much power it took for Peter to stand up on the day of Pentecost and preach Jesus in the same location as to they just crucified HIM? He had to have complete self-abandonment for his own body and welfare. What gave HIM that power? The HOLY SPIRIT and also that he had walked with Jesus those 40 days after his resurrection. It was no longer he that lived but Christ in HIM.

On the Day of Pentecost everyone heard Peter in there own native language. Why, there was a need to spread the gospel to the world. Matt 28:19 - Mark 1:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Who is this for?
Acts 2:38-39
38 Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off-for all whom the Lord our God will call."
So what does one have to receive the gift? Repent and be baptized. Who is eligible? As many as God will call.

John 6:44-47

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
KJV
Rom 10:13-15
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
KJV

And what does the preacher preach? The gospel
John 1:33
3 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
KJV

Matt 3:11-12
11 "I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire. 12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire."


The last part this verse what is he saying? I believe he speaking to those that are not baptized in HIS SPIRIT.
The sad part is many in all churches are not saved. They have walked the isle, signed the card, been water baptized, but there is no fruit.
James 3:11-12
11 Can both fresh water and salt water flow from the same spring? 12 My brothers, can a fig tree bear olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Neither can a salt spring produce fresh water.

How important is using HIS WORD to explain or get our doctrine?

Matt 7:21-23
22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:
KJV
John was instructed to write down what he seen for the churches. This after the great commission he spoke these words to John.
Rev 1:9-11
9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
KJV

Rev 2-3
2:1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;
2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.
4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
12 And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;
13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.
14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.
15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.
16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.
17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;
19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.
20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.
25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
28 And I will give him the morning star.
29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Revelation 3

3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
KJV





 2007/7/13 10:58





©2002-2020 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Privacy Policy