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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Sinners must DO something to be saved!

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PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
Wesly said I must preach righteousness, judgment and the law before I preach grace.



Wesley also said that an ounce of love is worth a pound of knowledge. There is a balance, brother. I believe that being around Wesley and Whitefield would have been a humbling experience for many street preachers today...humbling by virtue of the awesome [i]balance[/i] of truth and grace in their ministries which God could anoint. The legendary fruit of their ministries certainly bears testimony to this fact.


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Paul Frederick West

 2007/6/22 15:42Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
Dear Roaringlamb, Wesly said I must preach righteousness, judgment and the law before I preach grace. Paul said I would not know what sin was except by the law.



Yes and I agree that the Law must be given to those who would be proud in the hope that the Holy Spirit would give life to them to repent, and believe the Gospel.

Now to the miserable soul who realizes their utter and rather frequent failures, the Gospel may be presented as a soothing balm.

In all of this, I believe the Holy Spirit must give life before one can repent and believe. This, I am afraid is where much confusion comes from in our efforts to evangelize. We ask men to do what only God can- give life, then we tell them that they are Christians when there has been not one ounce of regeneration. It is all head knowledge and without the seal of the Holy Spirit thus one can be argued or reasoned quickly out of their profession, which tragically happens to a vast majority of our young people.

More tragic though is when one is truly regenerated, yet never tastes the glory of Christ's great work for them because they are lied to and told their acceptance is solely based upon them and what they do. Thus they must buy into a certain person's idea of what a Christian is or is not and it becomes Law and not Gospel, and they become the servant of a man and not of Christ.

I suggest that we need to learn to differentiate more carefully what in Scripture is law, and what is Gospel and not make the good news of Christ's death for sinners a mallet with which to beat people with.


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patrick heaviside

 2007/6/22 15:47Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
There is a balance



Quote of the day!!!
Unfortunately, whether we like it or not, we live in an amoral society. This is much different than in the days of Wesley and Whitefield in that at least then, most unsaved folks knew they were offending God, or even that there was a God to start with.

Today we must undertake the way to establish morals(by this I mean right and wrong, so the Law can be presented to drive them to Christ. Not as a means of bringing conviction for failed morality in the world's eyes), and also to befriend people to share with them. I have seen many people who laugh at guys shouting "repent" sit down and listen to someone tell them to repent over a cup of coffee. Same message, but simply being wise as serpents and gentle as doves. :-D


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patrick heaviside

 2007/6/22 15:57Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Yes brother only the goodness of God leads to repentance, but if you don't repent there is no Kingdom, Christ and John the Baptist and the Disciples all preched REPENT for the Kingdom of God is at hand



It is strange that we often separate the revelation of God's grace from our repentance. I agree that it is "only the goodness of God [that] leads to repentance," but my very repentance is initiated or birthed by His goodness. I doubt there is a kind of self-orchestrated repentance which we can have control over, coming apart from the workings of God. Rather it is the work of God's grace in me that bears the fruit of repentance. The question is then: is it possible to genuinely and self-consciously reject His goodness? I believe not, for a revelation of the goodness of God (which goodness we cannot know apart from Him revealing it to us in truth), as work in itself, LEADS us to repentance. It is a work from above, for which the flesh cannot boast, even in its repentance. [EDIT: I guess this is one of those things about which we can boldly say, "We know in part, and we prophesy in part..." (1 Cor. 13:9)]

 2007/6/22 15:58









 Re:

Here is a recent article I wrote called:

GOD DOES NOT ACCEPT SINNERS AS THEY ARE
Sinners Must Do Something To Be Saved

http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=17650&post_id=138014&order=0&viewmode=thread&pid=0&forum=36#138014

 2007/6/28 1:52









 Re:

With no offense, most things are written here on this site to where the new generation wouldn't even take time to read it. The way things are said are very un-simplistic and all compressed and puffed up in knowledge. If I were un-churched I wouldn't even understand what your sayin Mr. Jesse to begin with. It's almost like chinese to me and I speak english. It's all good, your still my friend...

 2007/6/28 2:09









 Re:

Quote:
Roaringlamb said: Perhaps I am being too stern, but time and time again, you boast of how crowds are angry with you, and that you are like Paul and the apostles. But your message has no grace, it is all law and no gospel at all because you have blurred the lines of the two. Do not forget brother there is not just Mount Sinai, but there is a Mount Zion which speaks better things.

Amen and Amen!

When we minister the gospel with grace we must have the eyes of Jesus in dealing with the people. Thats why we have His Spirit in us to do just that. God would have us look at people with compassion, "For God soooooooooooooo loved[s] the world". I have seen legalistic preachers destroy the love of God in a moment, I have seen them rip churches apart with their 'holiness' messages that have nothing to do with the holiness of God.

Believing in Jesus Christ by faith is a work, but it's a different kind of work. This work is not a work generated by the flesh, it's by His Spirit in conjunction with our spirit. The flesh can't take any credit for something it can't see, thus the flesh wars against the Spirit and the Spirit against the flesh.

When the enemy comes against your mind and says all manner of things against you, you work from your spirit man to maintain that your flesh is dead and your not going to react to his accusations. As soon as you react in the flesh, you have activated the works department. When you and I act out the law in our flesh, all manner of sin is waiting at the door to be acted out.

I am finding victory for the first time in my miserable existance going from a "sin-repent" lifestyle to just not sinning (I am talking about the besetting sin).

The victory is in Jesus and what He accomplished on the cross, the cross is the key. When we reckon ourselves to be dead unto sin, victory comes. The holy Spirit can only work in individuals who are NOT trying to work out their own salvation their way by means of creating or acting out existing laws that would cause your mind to think that these laws or standards make you holy and righteous before God. (going to church, tithing, standards of holiness, hair, the list goes on)

When we just simply trust the LORD (thats a work(spirit) in itself), and don't go to the right(law) or to the left(apostasy) but move on with that single eye (grace) straight ahead, the holy Spirit is working and He is working out all things for our good. He is that two edged sword piercing and dividing asunder of soul and spirit and of the joints and marrow, He is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

When you and I embrace the cross, all hell will break loose, "but be of good courage, I have overcome the world".




[I wasn't trying to interpret the right being law and left being apostasy or single eye being grace, I was just using them as an example to show that we must simply trust in the LORD and nothing more.]

 2007/6/28 10:45





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