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Joined: 2006/1/19
Posts: 1406


Dear Sister Annie,

Thank you for your kind words, but I believe it is you that has taught me. I thank you for your encouragement and if I caused you to believe again than all glory be to God who would use one such as I for His glory. Is He not wonderful, and how I pray for His peace to keep your heart and mind safely in Him.
You and yours have a wonderful Lord's Day and we will all praise His name together.:-D
In His Love

 2007/6/23 21:33Profile

 Re:Prayers. Praise God!

Quote:I pray for His peace to keep your heart and mind [u]safely[/u] in Him.

[u]Thank you[/u] for 'that' prayer Pastor.

Thank you for humbly being used in HIS gifts' and for preaching and believing, that it is "ALL OF HIM AND NOTHING OF US".

I pray to always be your sister ... your prayer up top here, gives me more confidence.

If I drop off the cyberspace radar screen Monday, would you pray, just that one sentence for me, whenever it comes to mind.
My battles are greater than I am, but knowing I'm in someone's prayers, keeps my hair's breath of faith, tense but stronger.
I feel maybe I, maybe we, may need to really concentrate on - "we're Be-ing HELD". I forget sometimes.

My hope/prayer is for me to be there That Day to 'see' all you, the Overcomers get [b]His Royal Hug[/b]. :-D What a Day, Glorious Day that will be!

It will be worth it ALL - when we see JESUS.


 2007/6/23 22:06

Joined: 2007/6/14
Posts: 562
Indiana, US


dear pastorfrin,

thank you for your response, but i think that we are still missing each other on some thinking..

we both believe that pastoring is given to the body by the Lord. we do not disagree there..

my quote should be taken along with everything i have written on this thread.. pastoring is VERY BIBLICAL. where i and some mebers are disagreeing with some is in the "title" and "office" of the modern "Pastor". that is what we are saying is unbiblical..

from what i read, much of what you guys do at your church is awesome and God glorifying.. once again, what we are saying is unbiblical is the "office" of the modern "Pastor" (where one man runs the show in a top-down CEO type style system).. that is what we are saying is unbiblical..

we desire every member edifying and building each other up in the faith, not just one man feeding the sheep in a lecture style service on a sunday morning.. i am saying that i long for every-member functioning in all the gifts and calling that the Lord has given us (some pastors, some prophets, some apostles, some teachers, and some evangelists). i do not disagree with the callings the Lord has placed on us His children. i just disagree with the way that calling has turned out to become an "office".

i hope that this may clarify some misunderstandings that you or others may have as regarding this thread... love you guys.

 2007/6/23 22:23Profile

Joined: 2003/8/8
Posts: 118


Amen to LoveHim's last post. Brother pastororfrin, I wish you would address the post I wrote to you before. Thanks! Nobody is saying that shepherds are not in the Bible or that the practice of being a shepherd is unbiblical. What is unbiblical is all of this talk about voting and salaried "Pastors" (and "co-Pastors" and "Senior Pastors" and "Youth Pastors," etc.) who take shepherding as a [i]function[/i] in the church and make it into a title and an office in which they take control of church direction. This is completely unscriptural. The New Testament shows a plurality of elders, not all of whom are necessarily gifted to teach (Paul says an elder with the gift of teaching deserves double honor), and who do not "rule" but guide and edify - so that each one may come into their function.

Also, I encourage everyone to read 1 Corinthians 14:26 (which was brought up in another thread) for beautiful teaching on what church gatherings should really look like. The New Testament is really quite clear on all of this. We need to forsake our preferences and be honest about what the Bible really says.


 2007/6/23 23:02Profile


1Ti 5:1 Rebuke not an elder, but entreat him as a father; and the younger men as brethren
1Ti 5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially they who labor in the word and doctrine.
1Ti 5:18 For the Scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The laborer is worthy of his reward.

 2007/6/23 23:11

Joined: 2007/6/14
Posts: 562
Indiana, US


acts 28:32-35

v32- "and now brethren, i commend you to God and to the word of His grace, which is able to build you up and give you an inheritance among all those who are sanctified"

v33- "i have coveted no one's silver or gold or apparel"

v34- "yes, you yourselves know that these hands have provided for my necessities, and for those who were with me"

v35- "i have shown you in every way, by laboring like this, that you must support the weak. and remember the words of the Lord Jesus, that He said It is more blessed to give than receive"

pastors were not supported by tithes and offerings in the NT, they worked like regular men and women. apostles (much like modern day missionaries) were the ones who were supported by freewill, voluntary giving.. but even though paul was entitled to taking their money to provide for his needs, he worked so as to show a better example.

1 corinthians 9:14-18

v14 "even so, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should live from the gospel"

v15- "but i have used none of these things, nor have i written these things that it should be done so to me; for it would be better for me to die than that anyone should make my boasting void"

v16- "for if i preach the gospel, i have nothing to boast of, for necessity is laid upon me; yes woe is me if i do not preach the gospel"

v17- "for if i do this willingly, i have a reward; but if against my will, i have been entrusted with a stewardship"

v18- "what is my reward then? that when i preach the gospel, i may present the gospel of Christ without charge, that i may not abuse my authority in the gospel"

once again, apostles were supported by the early church, but even paul works and limits himself lest people think that he is doing it for money. but pastors (elders) were mature men who worked a job and provided for themselves, because they didn't travel to start a church, they were already in a given location..

just some thoughts. love you guys.

 2007/6/24 10:09Profile

 Re: Shepherds

btw, pastorfrin works. Gets up at 4 a.m. to do so.

But about Paul. Being an Apostle, which is like a Missionary, he was traveling. He made tents when needed, but was also helped by the Church.

A Pastor doesn't travel about like a Missionary, and if his Church is small, he should work.

But 'if' he is in a bigger Church and Truly does "Shepherd" many folks himself, then he should be supported as any shepherd is.
Sheperds, the good ones and Not the Hirelings, benefit from the sheep they shepherd, lest they wouldn't be shepherds or they'd go hungry just having sheep for pets. Ha.

I understand the tension over these Hirelings out there ... one reason I don't watch TV of any kind.

I think if this discussion would change to what is a True Shepherd of God's sheep and what is a Hireling, Ezekiel 34 types, or those who make bucks by plagiarising other's works, etc., we'd All understand it better.

LORD Bless y'all.

 2007/6/24 14:05

Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7464


Now consider what I Timothy 3:1-15 (NASB):

1It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do.
2 An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,

3 not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, free from the love of money.

4He must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity

5 but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?),

6and not a new convert, so that he will not become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil.

7And he must have a good reputation with those outside the church, so that he will not fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

8 Deacons likewise must be men of dignity, not double-tongued, or addicted to much wine or fond of sordid gain,

9 but holding to the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience.

10 These men must also first be tested; then let them serve as deacons if they are beyond reproach.

11Women must likewise be dignified, not malicious gossips, but temperate, faithful in all things.

12(X)Deacons must be husbands of only one wife, and good managers of their children and their own households.

13For those who have served well as deacons obtain for themselves a high standing and great confidence in the faith that is in Christ Jesus.

14I am writing these things to you, hoping to come to you before long;

15 but in case I am delayed, I write so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of )the living God, the pillar and support of the truth.

( KJV uses the term bishop instead of the word overseer).

And study the book of Acts to see how the church functioned. One thing must be noted that when you have people who work to follow the LORD the Enemy will always be there to pervert whatever God has ordained. So you will see abuses everywhere, but that does not mean you will have to 'throw the baby out with the bath." (To you foreigners: this means discard the entire concept because of abuses in some quarters).

Are you fellows saying that to have a leader who attempts to give direction to a body of believers unbiblical?


Sandra Miller

 2007/6/24 18:08Profile

Joined: 2007/6/14
Posts: 562
Indiana, US


dear ginnyrose,

i pray to God that you did not get from my post that i believe that having pastors (shepherds) are unbiblical.. quite the opposite. what i am saying is that having one man "run the show" and be the "head" of the church (making all the decisions) is unbiblical.. i believe that if one truly studies the NT church without bias, they would find that the church met in homes, had many pastors (shepherds) and apostles, prophets, evangelists, and teachers in any given location. there was only one church per city (even if they met in multiple homes).

i don't know how many more times i can say "HAVING PASTORS (plural) IN CHURCHES IS VERY BIBLICAL" . what i am saying is wrong is having one man leading the church in a top-down authority structure (like a CEO business type structure).

i guess alot of people's opinions would be different if we didn't come to the bible with preconceived ideas about church and pastors, but studied how it really was in acts and the other churches in the NT.

i understand that there really are godly shepherds like pastorfrin and others out there and for that i say "praise God", but i still think some things are wrong about the system that we either don't know about or just don't wanna take a real deep look at..

love you guys.

 2007/6/24 22:47Profile


Hey Phil, we love you too and what you are talking about is quite sane.

We used to call that one man rules thing "The Shepherding Movement".

Don't know what they call it now, but it's wrong nonetheless. That's why I like the Church I'm in. There's no chances of any one in any position to run wild or rough-shod. Lots of accountability between them all. One Pastor, 2 Associate Pastors, gobs of elders and deacons and they listen to everyone there. So even the congregation isn't gone nuts, like I've seen in some Churches. Even Pastor says to us, if you think I'm wrong in anything, come talk to me.
He's honestly expressing that. I can't see where he's wrong anywheres, but I know for a fact that if you went to him, he'd ask the gobs of helps there to pray with him on whatever anyone said. He is no tirant and neither are his men.

Rare find I'd say.

Love and happy you could speak your piece.

 2007/6/24 23:14

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