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roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
Patrick please study before you answer things and accuse people of things...



Funny how you've got two Patricks here with ya, but you prolly didn't know that. I thought you were talking to me, maybe you were? :-(


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patrick heaviside

 2007/6/22 0:45Profile
Forevidence
Member



Joined: 2004/7/29
Posts: 711
Riverside

 Re:

Quote:

roaringlamb wrote:
Quote:
He is misguided in his doctrine like most Calvinist



I would like to hear how you can make a statement like this? Have you studied the ideals you are saying are wrong? I suppose you better not ever quote or read Edwards, Whitefield, Luther, Studd, or Carey then.

The greatest revival outside of Pentecost was the Reformation, and you would say that the men who preached Reformed doctrine were misguided?

You make the point that God says His people will be perfect, yet have you ever stopped to think that He meant in the Messiah?

If you can obey God perfectly, then why have any faith in Christ at all? or do you only need Him when you fail?

I boast my dear brother in the fact that I in myself am thouroughly wretched through and through. I make no pretenses about holiness in myself for even my good deeds are stained with sin, I cannot change the name of a sin so that it is not really a sin, and therefore maintain my ""sinlessness". But praise God for Christ!!! He lives in me, and it is no longer I but Christ, He presents me before the Father, He intercedes for me. His work alone is what allows me to come to God. Jesus Christ has been made sin for me that I might be made the righteousness of God in Him.

Oh, and no I do not live a loose antinomian life as I now long toplease my Father from love, and realize that sanctification is a process of being made into the image of Christ.

P.S. Don't get angry with us, or you will be breaking your teaching ;-)



Thanks for the advice...

The Reformation the greatest revival?

I will not comment on that since it is off topic.

You mentioned that 'sanctification' is a process. I dont disagree with that. I am just saying there is a day when the process is complete, or perfect.

You dont believe that and neither do most Calvinists, they instruct you to kill sin, but it seems sin keeps resurrecting on them. But last time I checked Jesus rose from the dead and conquered sin and death and....

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

I too believe in His work alone, but I believe that work includes freedom from all sin! Complete Sanctification! Glory!


_________________
Giancarlo

 2007/6/22 0:50Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
I believe sanctification is by faith not works... so did all the holines people. So I am not looking at self, I am looking to Christ fo Him to become my Sanctification.



Yes, but why look for Him to become, when He is already?

1Corinthians 1:30 But of him(God) are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, [b]and sanctification[/b], and redemption:
1Corinthians 1:31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Notice a couple things here-
1)Who put who in Christ?
2)What has Christ been made to those in Christ?

Brother I am not accusing, but just warning. Christ has purchased your salvation if you are regenerated. Notice this verse,
Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Do you see, if you have been genuinely called, in God's eyes, it is finished(I think I've heard those words before :-) )


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/6/22 0:55Profile
Christisking
Member



Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 671
Los Angeles, California

 Re:

Quote:
Where am I twisting Wesley's words. I have clearly quoted what he has said. What part don't you agree on?



all you did was twist Wesley's words to try to prove your point - Wesley was taking about Christian perfection not the heresy of sinless perfection you were speaking of in your article.

Here read some more what Wesley had to say

Quote:
In his sermon called, “On Sin in Believers”, John Wesley comes against the Moravians for preaching a form of sinless perfection and driving weaker Christians into a mode of despondency and despair, rather than strengthening and encouraging their faith by which they could overcome such inward unholy tempers and emotions. Listen to his words in this sermon:

“And as this position, ‘There is no sin in a believer, no carnal mind, no bent to backsliding,’ is thus contrary to the word of God, so it is to the experience of his children. These continually feel an heart bent to backsliding; a natural tendency to evil; a proneness to depart from God, and cleave to the things of earth. They are daily sensible of sin remaining in their heart, -- pride, self-will, unbelief; and of sin cleaving to all they speak and do, even their best actions and holiest duties. Yet at the same time they ‘know that they are of God;’ they cannot doubt of it for a moment. They feel his Spirit clearly ‘witnessing with their spirit, that they are the children of God.’ They ‘rejoice in God through Christ Jesus, by whom they have now received the atonement.’ So that they are equally assured, that sin is in them, and that "Christ is in them the hope of glory."

"But can Christ be in the same heart where sin is?" Undoubtedly he can; otherwise it never could be saved therefrom. Where the sickness is, there is the Physician, Carrying on his work within, Striving till he cast out sin. Christ indeed cannot reign, where sin reigns; neither will he dwell where any sin is allowed. But he is and dwells in the heart of every believer, who is fighting against all sin; although it be not yet purified, according to the purification of the sanctuary.”

Wesley goes on to say a few paragraphs later, “We are ‘reconciled to God through the blood of the cross:’ And in that moment the jronhma sarkos, the corruption of nature, which is enmity with God, is put under our feet; the flesh has no more dominion over us. But it still exists; and it is still in its nature enmity with God, lusting against his Spirit… I do not suppose any man who is justified is a slave to sin: Yet I do suppose sin remains in all that are justified.”

In the summary of this sermon, Wesley concludes by saying, “The sum of all is this: There are in every person, even after he is justified, two contrary principles, nature and grace, termed by St. Paul the flesh and the Spirit. Hence, although even babes in Christ are sanctified, yet it is only in part. In a degree, according to the measure of their faith, they are spiritual; yet, in a degree they are carnal. Accordingly, believers are continually exhorted to watch against the flesh, as well as the world and the devil. And to this agrees the constant experience of the children of God. While they feel this witness in themselves, they feel a will not wholly resigned to the will of God. They know they are in him; and yet find an heart ready to depart from him, a proneness to evil in many instances, and a backwardness to that which is good. The contrary doctrine is wholly new; never heard of in the church of Christ, from the time of his coming into the world, till the time of Count Zinzendorf; and it is attended with the most fatal consequences. It cuts off all watching against our evil nature, against the Delilah which we are told is gone, though she is still lying in our bosom. It tears away the shield of weak believers, deprives them of their faith and so leaves them exposed to all the assaults of the world, the flesh, and the devil.”

“Let us, therefore, hold fast the sound doctrine ‘once delivered to the saints,’ and delivered down by them with the written word to all succeeding generations: That although we are renewed, cleansed, purified, sanctified, the moment we truly believe in Christ, yet we are not then renewed, cleansed, purified altogether; but the flesh, the evil nature, still remains (though subdued) and wars against the Spirit. So much the more let us use all diligence in ‘fighting the good fight of faith.’ So much the more earnestly let us ‘watch and pray’ against the enemy within. The more carefully let us take to ourselves, and "put on, the whole armor of God;" that, although ‘we wrestle’ both ‘with flesh, and blood, and with the principalities, and with powers, and wicked spirits in high places,’ we may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.” (End of Wesley Quotations)

Obviously, not even did John Wesley, a prince among holiness preachers, believe in any form of sinless perfection. To the contrary, he clearly and unmistakably preached against it and corrected others who fell into this error.



But what Wesley preached is not really relevant - I still stand with all of the rest of the posters along with the other great men of God I quote who also disagree.

Patrick
www.revivalarmy.com


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Patrick Ersig

 2007/6/22 1:00Profile
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Member



Joined: 2004/7/29
Posts: 711
Riverside

 Re:

Quote:

roaringlamb wrote:
Quote:
I believe sanctification is by faith not works... so did all the holines people. So I am not looking at self, I am looking to Christ fo Him to become my Sanctification.



Yes, but why look for Him to become, when He is already?

1Corinthians 1:30 But of him(God) are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, [b]and sanctification[/b], and redemption:
1Corinthians 1:31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Notice a couple things here-
1)Who put who in Christ?
2)What has Christ been made to those in Christ?

Brother I am not accusing, but just warning. Christ has purchased your salvation if you are regenerated. Notice this verse,
Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Do you see, if you have been genuinely called, in God's eyes, it is finished(I think I've heard those words before :-) )



I have heard those words before and they apply to perfect holiness as well...

Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


_________________
Giancarlo

 2007/6/22 1:01Profile
Christisking
Member



Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 671
Los Angeles, California

 Re:

Quote:
Don't get angry with us, or you will be breaking your teaching ;-)



Not really - he does not even claim to have achieved his own teaching - only to know some people who claim that they have. :-o

Patrick
www.revivalarmy.com


_________________
Patrick Ersig

 2007/6/22 1:04Profile
Forevidence
Member



Joined: 2004/7/29
Posts: 711
Riverside

 Re:

Quote:

Christisking wrote:
Quote:
Where am I twisting Wesley's words. I have clearly quoted what he has said. What part don't you agree on?



all you did was twist Wesley's words to try to prove your point - Wesley was taking about Christian perfection not the heresy of sinless perfection you were speaking of in your article.

Here read some more what Wesley had to say

Quote:
In his sermon called, “On Sin in Believers”, John Wesley comes against the Moravians for preaching a form of sinless perfection and driving weaker Christians into a mode of despondency and despair, rather than strengthening and encouraging their faith by which they could overcome such inward unholy tempers and emotions. Listen to his words in this sermon:

“And as this position, ‘There is no sin in a believer, no carnal mind, no bent to backsliding,’ is thus contrary to the word of God, so it is to the experience of his children. These continually feel an heart bent to backsliding; a natural tendency to evil; a proneness to depart from God, and cleave to the things of earth. They are daily sensible of sin remaining in their heart, -- pride, self-will, unbelief; and of sin cleaving to all they speak and do, even their best actions and holiest duties. Yet at the same time they ‘know that they are of God;’ they cannot doubt of it for a moment. They feel his Spirit clearly ‘witnessing with their spirit, that they are the children of God.’ They ‘rejoice in God through Christ Jesus, by whom they have now received the atonement.’ So that they are equally assured, that sin is in them, and that "Christ is in them the hope of glory."

"But can Christ be in the same heart where sin is?" Undoubtedly he can; otherwise it never could be saved therefrom. Where the sickness is, there is the Physician, Carrying on his work within, Striving till he cast out sin. Christ indeed cannot reign, where sin reigns; neither will he dwell where any sin is allowed. But he is and dwells in the heart of every believer, who is fighting against all sin; although it be not yet purified, according to the purification of the sanctuary.”

Wesley goes on to say a few paragraphs later, “We are ‘reconciled to God through the blood of the cross:’ And in that moment the jronhma sarkos, the corruption of nature, which is enmity with God, is put under our feet; the flesh has no more dominion over us. But it still exists; and it is still in its nature enmity with God, lusting against his Spirit… I do not suppose any man who is justified is a slave to sin: Yet I do suppose sin remains in all that are justified.”

In the summary of this sermon, Wesley concludes by saying, “The sum of all is this: There are in every person, even after he is justified, two contrary principles, nature and grace, termed by St. Paul the flesh and the Spirit. Hence, although even babes in Christ are sanctified, yet it is only in part. In a degree, according to the measure of their faith, they are spiritual; yet, in a degree they are carnal. Accordingly, believers are continually exhorted to watch against the flesh, as well as the world and the devil. And to this agrees the constant experience of the children of God. While they feel this witness in themselves, they feel a will not wholly resigned to the will of God. They know they are in him; and yet find an heart ready to depart from him, a proneness to evil in many instances, and a backwardness to that which is good. The contrary doctrine is wholly new; never heard of in the church of Christ, from the time of his coming into the world, till the time of Count Zinzendorf; and it is attended with the most fatal consequences. It cuts off all watching against our evil nature, against the Delilah which we are told is gone, though she is still lying in our bosom. It tears away the shield of weak believers, deprives them of their faith and so leaves them exposed to all the assaults of the world, the flesh, and the devil.”

“Let us, therefore, hold fast the sound doctrine ‘once delivered to the saints,’ and delivered down by them with the written word to all succeeding generations: That although we are renewed, cleansed, purified, sanctified, the moment we truly believe in Christ, yet we are not then renewed, cleansed, purified altogether; but the flesh, the evil nature, still remains (though subdued) and wars against the Spirit. So much the more let us use all diligence in ‘fighting the good fight of faith.’ So much the more earnestly let us ‘watch and pray’ against the enemy within. The more carefully let us take to ourselves, and "put on, the whole armor of God;" that, although ‘we wrestle’ both ‘with flesh, and blood, and with the principalities, and with powers, and wicked spirits in high places,’ we may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.” (End of Wesley Quotations)

Obviously, not even did John Wesley, a prince among holiness preachers, believe in any form of sinless perfection. To the contrary, he clearly and unmistakably preached against it and corrected others who fell into this error.



But what Wesley preached is not really relevant - I still stand with all of the rest of the posters along with the other great men of God I quote who also disagree.

Patrick
www.revivalarmy.com



How many other of Wesley's sermons have you read Patrick? Be honest... because as I stated. A Christian could fall into sin, but He won't if He is made perfect....


This Wesley can speak for himself. When he was asked what sanctification was...

"QUESTION. What is it to be sanctified?

"ANSWER. To be renewed in the image of God, 'in righteousness and true holiness.'

"Q. What is implied in being a perfect Christian?

"A. The loving God with all our heart, and mind, and soul. (Deut. 6:5.)

"Q. Does this imply, that all inward sin is taken away?

"A. Undoubtedly; or how can we be Said to be 'saved from all 'our uncleannesses?' (Ezek. 36:29.)"



_________________
Giancarlo

 2007/6/22 1:08Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Please take the time to read these articles.
[url=http://www.lgmarshall.org/Arminianism/topladywesleycontroversy.html]Toplady Wesley Controversy[/url]


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/6/22 1:16Profile
Christisking
Member



Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 671
Los Angeles, California

 Re:

Quote:
How many other of Wesley's sermons have you read Patrick?



I don't know for sure - but I would have to say at least two to three dozen - But what Wesley preached is not really relevant - I still stand with all of the rest of the posters along with the other great men of God I quote who also disagree.

Quote:
I stated. A Christian could fall into sin, but He won't if He is made perfect



No that is not what you said - at this point it seems as though you really don't understand what you believe yourself - what you stated was:

Quote:
When one is entirely sanctified, he is able to fall back into sin.

But that does not prove that he was not perfect.

[b]and I said:[/b]

This makes no sense at all and is completely contradictory in nature - to say one was perfect (entire sanctification) and then sins after entire sanctification and then is entirely sanctified again and then sins angina and then again is entirely sanctified and back and forth... the statement condemns itself.. there really isn't much more to say



Quote:
A Christian could fall into sin, but He won't if He is made perfect



and

Quote:
When one is entirely sanctified, he is able to fall back into sin.



:-? :-? :-? :-? :-? :-?

You are now contradicting yourself. Oh well, like I said we will hash this out in person :-) I am done for the night - I will check back in the morning.

Patrick
www.revivalarmy.com


_________________
Patrick Ersig

 2007/6/22 1:36Profile
Forevidence
Member



Joined: 2004/7/29
Posts: 711
Riverside

 Re:

Quote:

Christisking wrote:
Quote:
How many other of Wesley's sermons have you read Patrick?



I don't know for sure - but I would have to say at least two to three dozen - But what Wesley preached is not really relevant - I still stand with all of the rest of the posters along with the other great men of God I quote who also disagree.

Quote:
I stated. A Christian could fall into sin, but He won't if He is made perfect



No that is not what you said - at this point it seems as though you really don't understand what you believe yourself - what you stated was:

Quote:
When one is entirely sanctified, he is able to fall back into sin.

But that does not prove that he was not perfect.

[b]and I said:[/b]

This makes no sense at all and is completely contradictory in nature - to say one was perfect (entire sanctification) and then sins after entire sanctification and then is entirely sanctified again and then sins angina and then again is entirely sanctified and back and forth... the statement condemns itself.. there really isn't much more to say



Quote:
A Christian could fall into sin, but He won't if He is made perfect



and

Quote:
When one is entirely sanctified, he is able to fall back into sin.



:-? :-? :-? :-? :-? :-?

You are now contradicting yourself. Oh well, like I said we will hash this out in person :-) I am done for the night - I will check back in the morning.

Patrick
www.revivalarmy.com



wesley is the one that stated that one can fall from entire sanctification. I just agreed with him. But the purpose of entire sanctity is not to fall, but if one does you are able to be renewed until you are established in it...


_________________
Giancarlo

 2007/6/22 1:43Profile





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