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Christisking
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Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 671
Los Angeles, California

 Re:

Quote:
2. I have yet to attain entire sanctification, but I believe God will do that work in me.



So you yourself admit that you aren't sinless and have sin in you? This basically shoots down your entire article - or are you claiming to be sinless? If you one was to read your article knowing that you claim to NOT be sinless they would think you were a hypocrite and contradictory in the highest degree. Reread the article with the knowledge that the author admits to having sin and you will see what I mean.

Patrick
www.revivalarmy.com


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Patrick Ersig

 2007/6/21 23:43Profile
Christisking
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Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 671
Los Angeles, California

 Re:

Quote:
yet I know from many years of researching this from every Expositor that I can find, that the doctrine of Sinless Perfection is a heresy. It would do no good for me to dig into the Greek to counter this article if this is where you firmly stand.
Just the simple e-sword alone, will prove this man has pulled what he's wanted from those he quotes, such as A. T. Robertson, etc..

Does that give one the excuse to "sin more so that grace more abounds - God forbid!"

There is much to counter in this Rebutal of Mr. Jarquin, but I believe just a google search on Sinless Perfection should suffice or just an e-sword for that matter.

No offense to you at all brother, but this doctrine leads to much spiritual pride and that is the most subtle and dangerous of all sins.
This is "Bad Hermeneutics" and not fair Greek exegesis. The Greek and it's tenses and grammar are all that matters in this discussion of opinions.

In Peace.
Annie



Your are correct Annie - this article is complete heresy, there are almost no holiness preachers past or present who agree with (useless you twist and misquote there words) there is so much in Scripture to come against such heresy it almost baffling where to start, and it is absolutely leads to spiritual pride and condemnation two of the worst sins of all.

roaringlamb wrote (same article different thread)

Quote:
Much of what has been written has deeply saddened me, for the vast majority of it is the type of self centered sanctification that ultimately ends up in despair.

and

I digress as the whole reason we are accepted at all is Christ alone. There are no amount of good works you can do to be accpeted by the Father if you are not in Him, and conversely if you are in Him, you have every blessing.

Christ is our great Reward, not sinlessness, not sanctification, but Christ Himslef, the One who died for the ungodly that they might live to God.

Brethren much of what has been written here is no different than the Roman Catholic mixture of justification and sanctification. They blur the lines so that none can be justified unless sanctification is perfect. Yet as we all know if we are honest, it is an ongoing battle day by day. How then could any be saved? In the Roman system they invented purgatory to help explain away this dilemma.

Much of this also seems very much like the judaizers who were saying one could not be a CHristian unless... To them Paul adamantly said that a man is justified by faith alone. Consider this passage,
"Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."



I agree this s article is deeply saddening - VERY SAD - and your analysis of the the article is very good.

Here are some other great men of God who disagree with Giancarlos article:

Quote:
"Am I saying a genuine convert never sins? Of course not. A Christian has, every Christian has a battle with the world, the flesh and
the devil. And sometimes he does fall into sin. But that’s the point. He falls into sin while the hypocrite, the false convert, dives
into sin."
~ Ray Comfort

"There have been strains of chrsitianity, marginal christianity, that down through the history of the church believed ina sinless
perfection. Well, the bible does not teach that. The bible teaches that even the most mature, most Godly christian is still
subseptical to sin. What this is teaching us is this, that one of the greatest evidences that a person has truly been born again, is
truly a child of God, is that they will be sensitive to the sin in their life and they will be lead to repentance and confession..."
~Paul Washer

"I remember sitting across from a brother and talking with him. And the conversation in scripture came to 1 John 1:8. He stated that he
felt he had no sin right now as we were talking. And I asked him well do you think you sinned in the last hour? last 30 minutes? he
said yes but he asked for forgivness and with a straight face told me he had right now no sense of sin in his life.
We can think we are sinless sitting by ourselves in a room but wait till God puts certain people or situations in our lifes. Or even if
the presence of the Holy God comes near to us we will actually start to realize how sinful we are in light of God's absolute purity and
perfection! Have mercy on me God a sinner. is my constant heart-cry."
~ Greg Gordon

"Perfection does not mean a sinless, flawless heart. Man judges by outward appearances, by what he sees. But God judges the heart, the
unseen motives (1 Samuel 16:7). David was said to have had a perfect heart toward God "all the days of his life," yet he failed the
Lord often. His life was marked forever by adultery and a notorious murder."
~ David Wilkerson

"In combating the error of “sin-your-way-to-heaven” Antinomianism, many have fallen into the fatal trap of swinging the pendulum too
far to the opposite extreme, preaching an impossibly high standard of holiness. Then, since nobody can meet these incredibly high
standards, those who are truly born of God begin to condemn themselves and question their salvation because they cannot meet such
standards. Thus, their assurance before God is shaken, their faith is destroyed, and they fall into the pit of self-condemnation."
~Josef Urban



I love you Giacarlo and I am deeply saddened to see you have fallen under such terrible teachings. I look forward ward to seeing you soon out in Cali and I am sure we (me, you Josef and Andrew) can hash this out openly and publicly and the Spirit will bear witness. I love you bro - give me a call anytime -I'll see you soon.

Patrick
www.revivalarmy.com



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Patrick Ersig

 2007/6/21 23:47Profile
Christisking
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Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 671
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 Re:

Quote:
When one is entirely sanctified, he is able to fall back into sin.

But that does not prove that he was not perfect.

Adam was perfect and fell, so is the Christian if he falls from perfection, but God is able to restore him to it again.






This makes no sense at all and is completely contradictory in nature - to say one was perfect (entire sanctification) and then sins after entire sanctification and then is entirely sanctified again and then sins angina and then again is entirely sanctified and back and forth... the statement condemns itself.. there really isn't much more to say :-? :-? :-?

Patrick
www.revivalarmy.com


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Patrick Ersig

 2007/6/21 23:49Profile
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Joined: 2004/7/29
Posts: 711
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 Re:

But even babes in Christ are in such a sense perfect, or born of God, (an expression taken also in divers senses,) as, First, not to commit sin. If any doubt of this privilege of the sons of God, the question is not to be decided by abstract reasonings, which may be drawn out into an endless length, and leave the point just as it was before. [b]Neither is it to be determined by the experience of this or that particular person.[/b] Many may suppose they do not commit sin, when they do; but this proves nothing either way. To the law and to the testimony we appeal. "Let God be true, and every man a liar." [Rom. 3:4] By his Word will we abide, and that alone. Hereby we ought to be judged.

-John Wesley

My experience has much to do with it because I have wrote the article, but I know of dozens of Christians who professed it in the past and lived it, and I know dozens of Christians that live it now, this very moment.

When John Wesley was asked if People can fall from perfection this is what he said...

"Q. 30. Can they fall from it?

"A. I am well assured they can; matter of fact puts this beyond dispute. Formerly we thought, one saved from sin could not fall; now we know the contrary. We are surrounded with instances of those who lately experienced all that I mean by perfection. They had both the fruit of the Spirit, and the witness; but they have now lost both. Neither does any one stand by virtue of anything that is implied in the nature of the state. There is no such height or strength of holiness as it is impossible to fall from. If there be any that cannot fall, this wholly depends on the promise of God.


Q. 31. Can those who fall from this state recover it?

"A. Why not? We have many instances of this also. Nay, it is an exceeding common thing for persons to lose it more than once, before they are established therein.


Also...

About those other men of God....

This article was not written in thought of any of these preachers that you have quoted, but I will respond anyways. Any person preacher or so called saint that discourages another saint from perfect holiness is telling them to sin. if your aim is not sinlessness, you are greatly decieved.

“For it is in this manner that one truly follows the Savior; by aiming at sinlessness and at
[u][b]His perfections.”[/b][/u]
-Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.597

Quote:
"Am I saying a genuine convert never sins? Of course not. A Christian has, every Christian has a battle with the world, the flesh and
the devil. And sometimes he does fall into sin. But that’s the point. He falls into sin while the hypocrite, the false convert, dives
into sin."
~ Ray Comfort



The point here is that Ray says 'sometimes.' just like when John said 'If' we sin than we have an advocate witht he Father. Christians do sin sometimes, but they should not at all.

Quote:
"There have been strains of chrsitianity, marginal christianity, that down through the history of the church believed ina sinless
perfection. Well, the bible does not teach that. The bible teaches that even the most mature, most Godly christian is still
subseptical to sin. What this is teaching us is this, that one of the greatest evidences that a person has truly been born again, is
truly a child of God, is that they will be sensitive to the sin in their life and they will be lead to repentance and confession..."
~Paul Washer



Pail Washer is aa Calvinist and because of his view of indwellling sin will not accept a perfect holiness. He is misguided in his doctrine like most Calvinist but is not an enemy of righteousness, unless he goes on to discourage people from entering into perfection which he is very close to doing.

Quote:
"I remember sitting across from a brother and talking with him. And the conversation in scripture came to 1 John 1:8. He stated that he
felt he had no sin right now as we were talking. And I asked him well do you think you sinned in the last hour? last 30 minutes? he
said yes but he asked for forgivness and with a straight face told me he had right now no sense of sin in his life.
We can think we are sinless sitting by ourselves in a room but wait till God puts certain people or situations in our lifes. Or even if
the presence of the Holy God comes near to us we will actually start to realize how sinful we are in light of God's absolute purity and
perfection! Have mercy on me God a sinner. is my constant heart-cry."
~ Greg Gordon



I love Greg but he is coming to a bad conclusions based on unsanctified bleivers. A emtirely sanctified believer would not have any sense of sin only pure love flowing out of his heart, and depending on how long he has been entirely sanctifie, he might not even have any consciousness of sin whatsovere and he could live like that for years. Greg is another person that I have talked too that rejects perfect holiness, the way the true holiness people preached it, like the methodists.



Quote:
"Perfection does not mean a sinless, flawless heart. Man judges by outward appearances, by what he sees. But God judges the heart, the
unseen motives (1 Samuel 16:7). David was said to have had a perfect heart toward God "all the days of his life," yet he failed the
Lord often. His life was marked forever by adultery and a notorious murder."
~ David Wilkerson



I love Wilkerson, but he does not know what Perfection means, and if we were to apply what David said here about King David then we can live in open rebeliion against God and still be perfect in our love towards him, that is ridiculous.

Perfect in the Hebrew and Greek check it...

Deu 18:13 Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God.
Hebrew-תּמים
tâmîym
taw-meem'
From H8552; [b]entire (literally, figuratively or morally[/b]); also (as noun) integrity, truth: - without blemish, complete, full, perfect, sincerely (-ity), sound, without spot, undefiled, upright (-ly), whole.

Hebrew implies morally perfect

Lets look at the greek...

Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Greek-τέλειος
teleios
tel'-i-os
From G5056; [b]complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); [/b]neuter (as noun, with G3588) completeness: - of full age, man, perfect.

This is what God commands that we be. I love Wilkerson but this bad interpretation and application the scripture.

Quote:
"In combating the error of “sin-your-way-to-heaven” Antinomianism, many have fallen into the fatal trap of swinging the pendulum too
far to the opposite extreme, preaching an impossibly high standard of holiness. Then, since nobody can meet these incredibly high
standards, those who are truly born of God begin to condemn themselves and question their salvation because they cannot meet such
standards. Thus, their assurance before God is shaken, their faith is destroyed, and they fall into the pit of self-condemnation."
~Josef urban



I have prepared an articel that I will be posting very soon concerning Joseph's article and also some bad expostion about I jonh 1:8. Stay tuned....

God bless!

I love all these borthers and they have done a great thing for th kingdom, but they are not right on this issue of holiness. But I still consider them brothers in the Lord.


Patrick please study before you answer things and accuse people of things...




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Giancarlo

 2007/6/22 0:07Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Brother I do not care what any man says IF it negates or diminshes Christ's work of redemption. He did not die to make salvation possible only if we work at it, but rather He died to save His people from their sins, all of them past, present, future. The joy of this as the Holy Spirit gives life to person is amazing.

For many years, I read Brengle, Booth, Finney, and I always was looking at self to make me right before God. I was a slave and served Him as such. But then, oh blessed day it was, the Holy Spirit showed me that God wants sons and daughters, not slaves. He wants men and woman who have no righteousness of their own, but have Christ as their righteousness, and are unnited to Him by the Spirit.

Just so you know, Wesley wrote and preached much before he was converted, and interestinlgy enough he attributes his conversion to when he heard Martin Luther's preface to the Epistle of Paul to the Romans. Can you imagine that? a Reformed view of Christ is what helped Wesley see that God had done all in Christ.

Now I hope I do not step on too many toes here, but Arminian Theology runs the very path you are on, straight into a works baesd righteousness because they have the same view of Christ as the Roman system, in that Christ's death has made salvation possible, but man must apply it. Scripture speaks of a God who sovereignly pursues people, and brings them into what Christ has purchased for them. But then man has no basis to boast does he? that's the point.

Please remember the Scripture that asks the question, "who made you to differ. what hast thou that thou didst not receive? If thou didst receive it, then why do you boast?"


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patrick heaviside

 2007/6/22 0:25Profile
Christisking
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Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 671
Los Angeles, California

 Re:

Quote:
Patrick please study before you answer things and accuse people of things...



Study what? - all you did was twist Wesley's words to try to prove your point - Wesley was taking about Christian perfection not the heresy of sinless perfection you were speaking of in your article.

What would suggest I study and what do you think I am accusing you of? - all I was doing is agree with the other posters and these other great men of God.

But like I said - we'll hash it out. ;-)


Patrick
www.revivalarmy.com


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Patrick Ersig

 2007/6/22 0:31Profile
Forevidence
Member



Joined: 2004/7/29
Posts: 711
Riverside

 Re:

Quote:

roaringlamb wrote:
Brother I do not care what any man says IF it negates or diminshes Christ's work of redemption. He did not die to make salvation possible only if we work at it, but rather He died to save His people from their sins, all of them past, present, future. The joy of this as the Holy Spirit gives life to person is amazing.

For many years, I read Brengle, Booth, Finney, and I always was looking at self to make me right before God. I was a slave and served Him as such. But then, oh blessed day it was, the Holy Spirit showed me that God wants sons and daughters, not slaves. He wants men and woman who have no righteousness of their own, but have Christ as their righteousness, and are unnited to Him by the Spirit.

Just so you know, Wesley wrote and preached much before he was converted, and interestinlgy enough he attributes his conversion to when he heard Martin Luther's preface to the Epistle of Paul to the Romans. Can you imagine that? a Reformed view of Christ is what helped Wesley see that God had done all in Christ.

Now I hope I do not step on too many toes here, but Arminian Theology runs the very path you are on, straight into a works baesd righteousness because they have the same view of Christ as the Roman system, in that Christ's death has made salvation possible, but man must apply it. Scripture speaks of a God who sovereignly pursues people, and brings them into what Christ has purchased for them. But then man has no basis to boast does he? that's the point.

Please remember the Scripture that asks the question, "who made you to differ. what hast thou that thou didst not receive? If thou didst receive it, then why do you boast?"




I believe sanctification is by faith not works... so did all the holines people. So I am not looking at self, I am looking to Christ fo Him to become my Sanctification.

What I recieve everday is by faith, not by Roman papal superstition, you be careful of your accusations.

No one here is diminishing Christ's work but rather exalting it, He is able to cleanse me from all sins and unrighteousness.


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Giancarlo

 2007/6/22 0:33Profile
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Joined: 2004/7/29
Posts: 711
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 Re:

Quote:

Christisking wrote:
Quote:
Patrick please study before you answer things and accuse people of things...



Study what? - all you did was twist Wesley's words to try to prove your point - Wesley was taking about Christian perfection not the heresy of sinless perfection you were speaking of in your article.

What would suggest I study and what do you think I am accusing you of? - all I was doing is agree with the other posters and these other great men of God.

But like I said - we'll hash it out. ;-)


Patrick
www.revivalarmy.com



Where am I twisting Wesley's words. I have clearly quoted what he has said. What part don't you agree on?


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Giancarlo

 2007/6/22 0:38Profile
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Joined: 2004/7/29
Posts: 711
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 Re:

The funny thing is that no one up to this point has even read my article probably... :-D


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Giancarlo

 2007/6/22 0:43Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
He is misguided in his doctrine like most Calvinist



I would like to hear how you can make a statement like this? Have you studied the ideals you are saying are wrong? I suppose you better not ever quote or read Edwards, Whitefield, Luther, Studd, or Carey then.

The greatest revival outside of Pentecost was the Reformation, and you would say that the men who preached Reformed doctrine were misguided?

You make the point that God says His people will be perfect, yet have you ever stopped to think that He meant in the Messiah?

If you can obey God perfectly, then why have any faith in Christ at all? or do you only need Him when you fail?

I boast my dear brother in the fact that I in myself am thouroughly wretched through and through. I make no pretenses about holiness in myself for even my good deeds are stained with sin, I cannot change the name of a sin so that it is not really a sin, and therefore maintain my ""sinlessness". But praise God for Christ!!! He lives in me, and it is no longer I but Christ, He presents me before the Father, He intercedes for me. His work alone is what allows me to come to God. Jesus Christ has been made sin for me that I might be made the righteousness of God in Him.

Oh, and no I do not live a loose antinomian life as I now long toplease my Father from love, and realize that sanctification is a process of being made into the image of Christ.

P.S. Don't get angry with us, or you will be breaking your teaching ;-)


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patrick heaviside

 2007/6/22 0:45Profile





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