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thevoice
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Joined: 2004/4/13
Posts: 16


 Do I need to be baptized before I am saved?

I am seriously considering baptism but not sure in (or into0 which church. I go sometimes to a baptist church here and sometimes to AG church or pentocostal/ non-denominational chruch near here. But i just found out that in order to be saved or born again or filled with the holy Ghost I must be baptized. Baptized in the Name of the Father Son and the Holy Ghost? whats the difference? Then how do I receive or know I have received the Holy


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John Williams

 2004/4/15 15:36Profile









 Re: Do I need to be baptized before I am saved?

thevoice

It is good to be concerned about this. Yet, sprinkling water or emersion in water have little to do with baptism. It is the Holy Spirit that baptizes you, not your participation in any ceremony. You will know when this is accomplished.

Mark 1:8
"I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost."



Jake

 2004/4/15 16:31
shazbot
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Joined: 2004/2/11
Posts: 60
USA

 Re: Do I need to be baptized before I am saved?

Quote:
But i just found out that in order to be saved or born again or filled with the holy Ghost I must be baptized.



Who has told you this, and what verse did they use to validate this point? They are in error. All that must take place for salvation or eligibility for the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is for you to receive Jesus Christ as Lord.

[i] "that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."[/i]

That's Romans 10:9-10 from the New King James, by the way.

I realize it is confusing, but don't worry. Christianity isn't nearly as complex, formulaic, ritualistic, or legalistic as most Christians think it is. There's only two commandments to follow, and there's always mercy when you fall.

You may ask what baptism is for since it's not required for salvation. Baptism is an outward sign of your salvation. It shows the world, "Hey, I'm saved!" It's certainly not required, but most people do it anyway. I have-- it was certainly an awesome experience with God.

 2004/4/15 17:30Profile
InTheLight
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Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2736
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re: Do I need to be baptized before I am saved?

Quote:
But i just found out that in order to be saved or born again or filled with the holy Ghost I must be baptized. Baptized in the Name of the Father Son and the Holy Ghost? whats the difference? Then how do I receive or know I have received the Holy



[i]And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.[/i]
(1 John 3:23-24)

[i]The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:[/i] (Romans 8:16)

You can know you have received the Holy Ghost by two things, there will be the fruit of the Spirit evident in your life(love for God and man) and there will be an inward personal testimony of a clear conscience, heavenly peace and joy. By His power He works; by His light he makes both Himself and His work known.

[i]The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.[/i]
(John 3:8)

In Christ,

Ron



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Ron Halverson

 2004/4/15 18:18Profile
Delboy
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Joined: 2004/2/8
Posts: 199
Worthing UK

 Re: Do I need to be baptized before I am saved?

Shazbot is right in what he says,if i may add my two pennies worth
Baptism in water, communion bread and wine are commands left by Jesus for his diciples,observance of these must be born out of relationship.Yes,baptism in water is an outward sign of an inward transaction.Some folk have only recieved a John Baptist type of baptism ie Repentance,But Gods longing is for many sons being born from above whereby we cry out Abba Father,hope that adds to your enquiry
:-)


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derek Eyre

 2004/4/15 18:18Profile
Delboy
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Joined: 2004/2/8
Posts: 199
Worthing UK

 Re:

Amen to Eagleswings post the timeing seems to have come at the same momemnt thanks Ron :-)


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derek Eyre

 2004/4/15 18:21Profile
thevoice
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Joined: 2004/4/13
Posts: 16


 Re:

Thanks for your responses. I am particularly concerned about these Bible verses:

MARK 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
MARK 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

If Baptism is not as important then why did Jesus give this commandment to His disciples? Need a scriptural answer!

Also

ACTS 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

ACTS 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God shall call.

It looks like Paul in the verses above is requiring baptism of the Holy Ghost as a condition for receiving the Holy Ghost?

Then compare with

CTS 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

ACTS 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

ACTS 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

ACTS 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

ACTS 19:5 When they heard [this], they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

ACTS 19:6 And when Paul had laid [his] hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Again Paul seems to say that the lack of Baptism in the Name of the Lord Jesus is the reason why the Holy Ghost is missing!

Okay if fruits will show that I have the Holy Ghost then what fruits?). It looks like I must wait for a while since a tree takes a while to bear fruit. Is there a way to know right away if I have the holy Ghost?

From your answers i may have the Holy Ghost already? without knowing?

I really need your help and prayers! I want the RIGHT way to surrender fully to GOD.

John


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John Williams

 2004/4/15 19:14Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
You can know you have received the Holy Ghost by two things, there will be the fruit of the Spirit evident in your life(love for God and man) and there will be an inward personal testimony of a clear conscience, heavenly peace and joy. By His power He works; by His light he makes both Himself and His work known.


It's intresting to [i]note[/i] that Jimmy just finished a paper on Intial evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit and has posted it to the site here: [url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=1749&forum=36&1]Initial Evidence Paper[/url]

I think what Ron said were quite good on that the evidences of having the Holy Spirit and being a regenerate being are:
1. fruit of the Spirit evident in your life [i]ie Holiness, Love[/i]
2. inward personal testimony of a clear conscience [i]ie witness of the spirit, 'His spirit bears with our Spirit that we are Sons of God. we cry Abba Father[/i]


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2004/4/15 19:14Profile
InTheLight
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Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2736
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re: water baptism

Quote:
If Baptism is not as important then why did Jesus give this commandment to His disciples? Need a scriptural answer!



Any time someone presents you with something you must "do" for salvation remember that the work of salvation has been "done" by Jesus Christ.

The following is a comment on water baptism from John MacArthur, This may be of some help to you;


"First, it is quite clear from such passages as Acts 15 and Romans 4 that no external act is necessary for salvation. Salvation is by divine grace through faith alone (Romans 3:22, 24, 25, 26, 28, 30; 4:5; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8-9; Philippians 3:9, etc.).

If baptism were necessary for salvation, we would expect to find it stressed whenever the gospel is presented in Scripture. That is not the case, however. Peter mentioned baptism in his sermon on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:38). However, in his sermon from Solomon's portico in the Temple (Acts 3:12-26), Peter makes no reference to baptism, but links forgiveness of sin to repentance (3:19). If baptism is necessary for the forgiveness of sin, why didn't Peter say so in Acts 3?

Paul never made baptism any part of his gospel presentations. In 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Paul gives a concise summary of the gospel message he preached. There is no mention of baptism. In 1 Corinthians 1:17, Paul states that "Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel," thus clearly differentiating the gospel from baptism. That is difficult to understand if baptism is necessary for salvation. If baptism were part of the gospel itself, necessary for salvation, what good would it have done Paul to preach the gospel, but not baptize? No one would have been saved. Paul clearly understood baptism to be separate from the gospel, and hence in no way efficacious for salvation.

Perhaps the most convincing refutation of the view that baptism is necessary for salvation are those who were saved apart from baptism. We have no record of the apostles' being baptized, yet Jesus pronounced them clean of their sins (John 15:3--note that the Word of God, not baptism, is what cleansed them). The penitent woman (Luke 7:37-50), the paralytic man (Matthew 9:2), and the publican (Luke 18:13-14) also experienced forgiveness of sins apart from baptism.

The Bible also gives us an example of people who were saved before being baptized. In Acts 10:44-48, Cornelius and those with him were converted through Peter's message. That they were saved before being baptized is evident from their reception of the Holy Spirit (v. 44) and the gifts of the Spirit (v. 46) before their baptism. Indeed, it is the fact that they had received the Holy Spirit (and hence were saved) that led Peter to baptize them (cf. v. 47).

You want to take Acts 2:38 in the context of the whole of Scripture and it is very obvious and very clear that the whole of Scripture teaches that we are saved by grace through faith. If you read Ephesians 2:8-9 it says just that, "For by grace are you saved, through faith--that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God--not of works, lest any man should boast." You also have in Acts, chapter 8, the illustration of Simon, you remember, who wanted the Holy Spirit. He was baptized, and then Peter said to him, in effect, you are an unbeliever, you are in the gall of bitterness and the bond of iniquity--obviously baptism didn't save him. Obviously, the lack of baptism didn't damn the thief on the cross, because Jesus said to him, "This day you will be with me in paradise," even though that was of course a pre-church situation.

So, the whole of Scripture teaches salvation by grace through faith, but at the same time, the first and initial act of obedience in the early church, the first and initial act of obedience was the public confession of that faith. I believe that public confession of that faith came forth in baptism so that baptism is linked with repentance. "Repent and be baptized" is to say, "Repent of your sin and make public confession." It may be very much like Romans 10:9-10, "If you believe in heart God raised Him from the dead, and confess with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' you will be saved."

So, I believe that baptism was God ordained as a first step of public confession of a repentant, believing heart. It was so inseparably linked to salvation as to be spoken of, if you will, in the same breath. I believe, for example, in Ephesians 4, when it says, "One Lord, one faith, one baptism," it's talking about water baptism, because that water baptism was such an immediate, visible expression of a heart of faith that they were tied together. So, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of sin," simply takes the confession and the faith and puts it together--one is the heart and the other is the outward acknowledging and I think it puts them together.

Some would take the word "for," the preposition "for" and translate it "because." I have gone through that myself and that is a possibility, in other words it would read, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, because of the remission of sins"--adding that "baptism" is there because you sins have been remitted, but I don't really think that you need to force it to say that. It is simply that baptism was so inextricably linked to the inward attitude of the heart as the way that the confession was made that they are tied together, and you see it in verse 41, "They that gladly received his word were . . ." What? "baptized."

Now, you don't want to come up with a "Baptismal Salvation" because that would strike a blow at the doctrine of salvation by grace through faith which is pervasive in Scripture. So you want to see baptism for what it is--the outward confession of the inward belief."


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Ron Halverson

 2004/4/15 19:32Profile
shazbot
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Joined: 2004/2/11
Posts: 60
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 Re: Baptism and Salvation

Quote:
I really need your help and prayers! I want the RIGHT way to surrender fully to GOD.



Don't worry about things too much. Since it appears you are so earnest, you will find God. 1 Samuel 16:7 says: [i]But the Lord said to Samuel, "Do not look at his appearance or at the height of his stature, because I have refused him. For the Lord does not see as man sees; F39 for man looks at the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart." [/i]

If you miss God, He'll find you. He looks at your efforts, not your adherence to any strict set of rules. He examines your motives, not your actions.

InTheLight has done an excellent job of explaining. If you have further concerns, we're always here.

 2004/4/15 19:45Profile





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