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Telestai
Member



Joined: 2006/10/2
Posts: 10
Renton, Wa

 Vegan

I think that a christian can choose any diet they want, BUT! If that choice is to be vegan because the individual sees animals as equal to humans then its a sin. They are either exhalting animals to the level of humans or lowering humans down to animals, or somewhere in between.

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

There is a natural system that God set up in the begining. Any violation or change that we make to that system is sin.

Im tryin to figure this out. What do ya think?


_________________
Nick

 2007/6/20 20:34Profile
jordanamo
Member



Joined: 2006/11/23
Posts: 397


 Re: Vegan

Most vegans subscribe to an evolutionary mindset and thus view all animals (including us) as being equal. I wouldn't classify that as sin, just an error that one without the biblical mindset could not understand. God actually intended us from the outset to not eat animals, by the way, but after the Fall (or, it may have been after Noah's flood I think) permitted us. Someone may really love animals, and decide they don't want to eat them or participate in the purchase of any material that resulted in the death/subjugation of an animal. So what? I wouldn't worry about such trivial matters.

Personally, I hate slaughterhouses, and the way animals are raised and killed is sickening, I'd rather them roam around on pastures (and a small percentage of them do, you can buy the meat at health/organic food stores-- it just has to have the label of 'pasture-raised' and not just 'organic') and not have their children taken from them at birth, and not be treated so harshly. Yeah. Does that mean I put them equal to humans? No, that just means I have respect for them as what they are: God's creation. No different from how I view the rest of God's creation. But it's also a lot healthier for you to eat meat raised naturally than factory-farmed.

Jordan

 2007/6/20 21:30Profile
letsgetbusy
Member



Joined: 2004/9/28
Posts: 957
Cleveland, Georgia

 Re: Vegan

Romans 14
[1] Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
[2] For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
[3] Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.

1 Timothy 4
[1] Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
[2] Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
[3] Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
[4] For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
[5] For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.


_________________
Hal Bachman

 2007/6/20 21:32Profile
Telestai
Member



Joined: 2006/10/2
Posts: 10
Renton, Wa

 Re:

The core issue is, is a person viewing animals as equal to humans a sin? I really dont care what they eat.

"I wouldn't classify that as sin, just an error that one without the biblical mindset could not understand."

...If i didnt understand that lusting in my heart was a sin, would it not be a sin? Im not trying to argue. I just understand that whatever God says goes. No matter what I think or beleive personally


_________________
Nick

 2007/6/20 21:58Profile
jordanamo
Member



Joined: 2006/11/23
Posts: 397


 Re:

Quote:
The core issue is, is a person viewing animals as equal to humans a sin? I really dont care what they eat.

It has a deeper root where the sin lies, but that in and of itself is not really sin.. it's just an error, misunderstanding. I think so, at least.

I suppose you can view it as a sin... but its real root lies deeper, to a rebellion against God.

Much like lusting in your heart I guess.

Although, most/many people that have pets pretty much treat them as equal in their family-- are they sinning? Again, I think people that view them as being equal really just lack the biblical mindset... they don't have that foundation. I'd be more concerned if a Christian had that mindset, but few do. (Biblically speaking, for animals to be equal to us they'd have to have been created in God's image.)

Gah. This conversation has already tired me!

 2007/6/20 22:05Profile









 Re:

Romans 14
[1] Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
[2] For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
[3] Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.

I think Letsgetbusy nailed right on the head here with this verse.

There are many Christians who have gone vegan for health reasons and do not believe it is a sin at all, for the rest of us to eat meat.

There are countless Christian Ministries that show the health benefits to this type diet.

I'm not vegan, but have read enough about the quality of the meat we now have offered to us, that is filled with GOD knows what, estrogen, antibiotics and a bunch of stuff I'd rather not get into and "where" our meat is being packaged and from what other countries and on and on it all goes about ANYTHING this is not Organically grown, now-a-days.
There are some very legitimate reasons why some folks are going vegan. I'd be tempted to join them if I could, most especially for my health issues.

Animal fat does cause problems in the circular system so that's why Jesus and Co. ate so much Fish ... the Omega 3 in fish, counteracts the bad fat.

But now our fish is very tainted too, with mercury and those "fish farms" are disgusting, if you've ever read up on them or have seen them.

All our foods are messed up with endless amounts of chemicals that are truly bad for you and some are in long-term doses, lethal.

But unfortunately, we can't all afford to buy organic meats and produce, so we just Pray before we eat and remember what Jesus said about "you shall drink deadly poison and it will not harm you" ... HA ... that's our meal time prayer. :-P

 2007/6/20 22:59
theopenlife
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 926


 Re:

Joseph Alleine wrote something on this point, that God intended man to act as a sort of 'high priest' for the natural world. Animals, minerals, and plants cannot directly praise God, yet they come to man with their offering of bounty and usefulness. They have been obedient to the command of God to be fruitful and multiply, and man in turn is responsible to present their beings to God with thankfulness and reverence. To say it another way, animals are serving God in their use to man, and man should respect creation for the sake of out common Creator. When I think of animals as another group of subjects in God's Kingdom, I value their lives with a degree of respect more fitting a creation of the Lord.

 2007/6/20 23:14Profile
jordanamo
Member



Joined: 2006/11/23
Posts: 397


 Re:

Quote:
But unfortunately, we can't all afford to buy organic meats and produce, so we just Pray before we eat

Not sure about this... if you limit your other spending that is frivolous it might not be so difficult... how can one put a price tag on your health? Personally I don't like most organic foods.. if their USDA certified at least it's been proven to be a worthless label (just cause it's called 'organic' doesnt mean it is!)... I'd prefer to buy from local organic farmers, or actually, grow your own food! It's not expensive and can actually save you money... my mother has a garden, it's pretty plentiful, we get squash, cucumbers, tomatoes, soon lettuce, green beans from it, and onions soon. That's the best way. Every Christian should have a garden I think. When I have a house, and a family, our backyard will have a large garden, and hopefully most of our food will come from it.

 2007/6/20 23:31Profile









 Re:

Quote:
The core issue is, is a person viewing animals as equal to humans a sin? I really dont care what they eat.



We may be made in the image of God, and given rule over the whole Earth, however:

"For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity." (ECCL 3:19)

That said, I don't know any vegans that believe animals are equal to humans.

Vegans may

1. not want to eat the growth hormones, antibiotics, and various chemicals injected into livestock today;

2. not want to participate in an industrial meat market that has no respect for animals;

3. have a medical condition that meats exacerbate;

4. have eaten too many magic mushrooms, dance like it's the "Age of Aquarius", practice tantric yoga and buddhist meditations, and believe man, chicken, and ant are all part of the great Gaia spirit...

Quote:
...If i didnt understand that lusting in my heart was a sin, would it not be a sin? Im not trying to argue. I just understand that whatever God says goes. No matter what I think or beleive personally



Well, while you're trying to make a sin out of non-sins (hehe, made that one up on-the-fly) you may also want to consider who you buy your meat from, and how the animal it came from was treated before it ended up on your plate.

Maybe watch a few online videos on how a cow becomes a steak or a chicken becomes a McNugget.

Then compare how industry treats our animals with how Almighty God commands we treat them:

"[b]A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast[/b]: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel." (PRO 12:10)

"[b]Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk[/b]." (EXOD 23:19) Don't cook a baby calf in it's mother's milk - how cruel can you get?

"Six days thou shalt do thy work, and on the seventh day thou shalt rest: [b]that thine ox and thine ass may rest[/b], and the son of thy handmaid, and the stranger, may be refreshed." (EXOD 23:12) Animals get vacation time.

"For it is written in the law of Moses, [b]Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?[/b]" (I CHRO 9:9)

"Thou shalt not plow with an ox and an ass together." (DEUT 22:10) Different animals have different speeds and strenths - don't make it hard on them by yoking them together - or, two stupids don't make a smart.

"But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat." (GEN 9:4) Don't just chop off a leg, start munching away, and leave the poor animal alive till next week when you decide cut off another leg...

"And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?" (JONAH 4:11)

"The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea." (ISAIAH 11:6-9)

From [url=http://www.mechon-mamre.org/jewfaq/animals.htm]Mechon-Mamre[/url], a Jewish website on Animal Cruelty:

Quote:
In the Torah, humanity is given dominion over animals, and has the right to use animals for legitimate needs. Animal flesh can be consumed for food; animal skins can be used for clothing; the Torah itself must be written on parchment, that is, animal hides.

However, we are permitted to use animals in this way only when there is a genuine, legitimate need, and we must do so in the manner that causes the animal the least suffering. Kosher slaughtering is designed to be as fast and painless as possible, and if anything occurs that might cause pain (such as a nick in the slaughtering knife or a delay in the cutting), the flesh may not be consumed. Hunting for sport is strictly prohibited, and hunting and trapping for legitimate needs is permissible only when it is done in the least painful way possible.

 2007/6/21 0:27









 Re: Vegan

Quote:

Telestai wrote:
I think that a christian can choose any diet they want, BUT! If that choice is to be vegan because the individual sees animals as equal to humans then its a sin. They are either exhalting animals to the level of humans or lowering humans down to animals, or somewhere in between.

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

There is a natural system that God set up in the begining. Any violation or change that we make to that system is sin.

Im tryin to figure this out. What do ya think?

Jordan said:
Quote:
Most vegans subscribe to an evolutionary mindset and thus view all animals (including us) as being equal. I wouldn't classify that as sin, just an error that one without the biblical mindset could not understand.

Actually it [i]is[/i] a sin, because of what it says in Romans 1:

1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of people who suppress the truth by their unrighteousness, 1:19 because what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 1:20 For since the creation of the world his invisible attributes – his eternal power and divine nature – have been clearly seen, because they are understood through what has been made. So people are without excuse. 1:21 For although they knew God, they did not glorify him as God or give him thanks, but they became futile in their thoughts and their senseless hearts were darkened. 1:22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 1:23 and [i][u]exchanged the glory of the immortal God for an image resembling mortal human beings or birds or four-footed animals or reptiles.[/u][/i]"


Jordan said:
Quote:
God actually intended us from the outset to not eat animals, by the way, but after the Fall (or, it may have been after Noah's flood I think) permitted us.

Yes, after the flood. Maybe because the plants that remained were so much less nutritious that some animals, and man, had to eat meat to stay healthy.

I understand that vegans (or even vegetarians) have to take suppliments, or watch their diet very carefully.

Blessings

Jeannette

 2007/6/21 15:09





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