By the way, Hulsey, if you support the view of the paper that you posted, then you are in error when you assert that you are aligned with DelBoy's comments.
I said we were close to each other's view, not completely aligned, and yes I whole heartedly agree with the paper I posted :-D
The same people that supported the ordination of women are the same individuals who are now screaming that we should ordain homosexuals.
Not so. The Assemblies of God has ordained women almost since its inception and there is not even a hint of support for the homosexual agenda in the A/G's. David Wilkerson supports women preachers. Teresa Conlon, Carter Conlon's wife, preaches regularly at Times Square Church and their stand against homosexuality is more than firm.
You and I have a disagreement about how to interpret these passages. We are probably not going to ever agree. The paper I posted states pretty clearly the way I stand.
If anyone takes exception with this, I have stated my position and what I feel is a correct exegesis of the text, and since I sense that the tone is about to get dark and emotions are about to run high, this is all I have to say on the matter, I will not post again to this thread.
While I don't think your exegisis is correct, you don't have to worry about the tone. I'm sure you don't think mine is either. I'm not the least bit angered with the fact that you disagree with me. I hope you aren't angry with me. I'm sure we'll find many issues that we do agree on. That fact that we both post on this site should tell us that we have much more in common than we think.
| 2004/4/18 23:06||Profile|
No hard feelings................
| 2004/4/19 0:00||Profile|
By the way, do you carry Hamish MacKenzie's Preaching the Eternities/ i can't find it anywhere. God bless you richly, thanks for taking up the challenge.
I'm not sure. Greg Gordon is the one to ask. He's the administrator of this site. His nick name is sermonindex. Do you have some info on Hamish MacKenzie? Perhaps we could send some feelers out and try to find some of his sermons.
| 2004/4/19 0:07||Profile|
Can i just say,Jeremy,Keith,big Dave,and chanin all your posts are what this site is about,building one another up in our most holy faith, i'm growing are you lot? :-D
| 2004/4/19 7:20||Profile|
Derek (and others), I have had the wonderful opportunity to grow in Forbearance on this forum. This is what i know the Lord has wanted me to learn. :-)
Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and ALL KNOWLEDGE, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not LOVE, I am NOTHING. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it PROFITS ME NOTHING.
Love SUFFERS LONG and is KIND; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; does not BEHAVE RUDELY, does not SEEK ITS OWN, is not PROVOKED, thinks no evil; does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. For we know IN PART and we prophesy in part.
This is the most EXCELLENT way! Amen!
Satisfied in Him, Chanin
| 2004/4/19 7:46||Profile|
Auckland, New Zealand
Firstly I must admit that I havent read all the posts in this thread.
The Word of God says:
"Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.
For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.
Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control." - 1 Timothy 2:11-15
Many say that this is to do with the culture at the time Paul wrote the epistle. But I remind you of what Warren Wiersbe says on the issue, and how people try to put fences up in the Bible saying, 'Oh that was for the Jews, that was for the Christians at that point in time' etc etc
"[b]All[/b] Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work." - 2 Timothy 3:16-17
I've noticed people are giving examples of how Jesus allowed woman to be involved in ways at which culture wouldn't allow him. Or other biblical examples of woman in authoritative roles. But do these examples do not take away the authority of other passages of scripture?
Men and woman were created by God and were designed for different roles and purposes.
Isnt it about time we got back to biblical Christianity?
Isnt it about time we stopped chopping and cutting and translating Scripture to be in line with our own personal beliefs?
I believe the correct guidelines for a Church are found in the New Testament, and we need to get back to those guidelines.
There are many people who truly believe the greatest key to revival is obedience.
Just a few thoughts of mine on the subject.
| 2004/4/20 19:01||Profile|
| Re: The role of women in ministry|
Isnt it about time we got back to biblical Christianity?
It's been time. It's always time. The reason there's an argument about this at all is because people have often vastly different ideas about what biblical Christianity is. That's why you have so many denominations and so many non-denominational churches with opposing beliefs.
It all boils down to this: Man is not perfect. We all try our hardest to do what we think is right in the eyes of God, realize that mercy is available for the areas where we've got it wrong, and remember always that God will straighten us out when we die (I, for one, am looking forward to it. I quite dislike stumbling around in my human ignorance and stupidity).
| 2004/4/20 23:29||Profile|
Well...I guess if I went according to apparently the majority of the posters view on this topic...I had better not preach tomorrow night in the youth service I am scheduled for! Man (humans) have tried for centuries, nay thousands of years to put a limit on what God is capable of doing (through whomever He chooses!) Heaven forbid God should deign to choose,or call a woman to any knowledge about the revelations of God and not be able to teach or preach it! I don't want to appear offensive...but I know what God has called me to do and that he has prepared my heart and my messages to be heard by those He chooses. Just my two cents! :)
| 2004/4/21 1:25||Profile|
Well...I guess if I went according to apparently the majority of the posters view on this topic...
Actually, though I'm not sure, I think the majority here are at least egalitarian enough to let you be a guest preacher. I'm not one of them, but you don't answer to me, you answer to God.
Quote:For the record, I agree. (I realize there's a responding chorus from humans and demons alike, "For the record, nobody cares.")
I had better not preach tomorrow night in the youth service I am scheduled for!
Quote:That's true, many have misguidedly attempted that. I am not currently one who does so, however. Frankly, I believe God could make a square circle if He really wanted to. More to the point, I believe God could annoint women as extremely powerful and effective preachers of His Word. I believe God could use Jesus-hating heathen to preach His Word and bring people to salvation (I've even heard of one such case!). The middle of those three is by far the more likely, I'm not trying to use that old tired "take to logical extremity and argue ad absurdium against that," but I think we should really realize something:
Man (humans) have tried for centuries, nay thousands of years to put a limit on what God is capable of doing (through whomever He chooses!)
[u]It's not a question of whether God [b]can use us[/b] if we act a certain way, it's a question of whether God's given revelation shows that he [b]wants[/b] us to act a certain way[/u].
I do hope I've made myself clear, as I'm very reluctant to try to be more so, for I do not wish to unnecessarily offend any of the readers (if I have not yet done so).
Quote:I'm not quite sure what you're saying here (if the "not" weren't there I could see it as an example saying of the strawman complementarian). Nonetheless, I wouldn't say there's anything necessarily wrong with a woman preaching or teaching (if God's thus called them, as I'd ask of any man) to, for example, the heathen, or to her children in a family setting. It's when a woman gets behind the pulpit and starts exercising spiritual authority over a congregation including men that I think a potentially dangerous departure is made from New Testament Christianity. Why do I think so? I think every Scripture and argument I would bring up has been brought up already in this thread.
Heaven forbid God should deign to choose,or call a woman to any knowledge about the revelations of God and not be able to teach or preach it!
Quote:Nor do I, but you appear petulant, and I probably appear stubborn and sexist. Let us trust the Lord to judge our hearts and try not to judge too harshly by appearance.
I don't want to appear offensive...
Quote:If that's what you honestly believe God wants you to do, even in light of Scripture, there's no way I can expect you to do otherwise, because it would be sin for you to disobey what you think to be God's will. Never cease seeking the Lord in prayer, for direction, correction, encouragement, and power (and the innumberable other things we need from Him).
but I know what God has called me to do and that he has prepared my heart and my messages to be heard by those He chooses.
God's grace be with you,
| 2004/4/21 2:22||Profile|
| Re: hierarchy|
you write Even in the Godhead there is hierachy and each in total union and communion with eachother,The father has specific working as does the Son all by the Spirit.
technically, among trinitarians, the word hierarchy would be heresy. There is chosen role within the godhead, but hierarchy would produce a graded trinity of the kind that Origen held.
We need to remember that all we know of the Word of God (I mean a person here not an utterance) is what has been revealed in connection with His human mission. In that mission He chose submission to the will of the Father, and in that role 'the Father is greater than I'. According to Philippians 2:6ff He emptied himself, He took upon Himself the form of a servant, He humbled Himself, He became obedient to death. Notice, these were all His choices. In a hierarchy they would have been imposed not chosen. In His essential nature He is co-equal, co-substantial, co-eternal.
Pertaining to this thread it may be interesting to note my word 'choice'. Submission is not subservience. This is moment by moment choice not the fixed positioning of hierarchy.
| 2004/4/21 3:47||Profile|