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thevoice
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Joined: 2004/4/13
Posts: 16


 Can women preach/teach in church?

I TIMOTHY 2:12 "But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence."

What is wrong with this scripture above or is it just that most churches ignore and allow women to teach/preach?


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John Williams

 2004/4/15 14:12Profile









 Re: Can women preach/teach in church?

Timothy (Paul) may have a problem with women preaching, but faith based on the direct experience of God shows women to be as worthy as men in the preaching department.

Jake

 2004/4/15 15:23
KeithLaMothe
Member



Joined: 2004/3/28
Posts: 354


 Re: Can women preach/teach in church?

I think this has been discussed somewhere else around here, I think the thread name had the words "Egalitarian theology" in it if you want to look.

My own interpretation of 1 Timothy 2:12 and 1 Corinthians 14:34 is that Paul did not allow women to be in teaching positions within the church. I believe we should adhere to the New Testament example of church except where there is some compelling (and Scripturally acceptable) reason to do otherwise.

Much of the institutional Church throughout the world (but particularly North America and Europe) has been "absorbing" parts of the world while trying to "win" it. This is exceedingly dangerous and is why we see "churches" with lower standards of morality than the heathen had some decades ago (most of the heathen have since moved on to more rotten pastures). I think this has also led to secular feminism spilling over into the Church, and thus the above verses have to be essentially ignored in any church not willing to stand against the pressure to be egalitarian.

Some simply ignore the verses (those that don't accept Biblical inerrancy to begin with have no qualms of conscience here). Some try to relegate these verses (and others, on other topics) to "cultural" differences between the culture(s) of the New Testament church and those of today. I'm inclined to think there's some validity to that idea, but I suspect that inclination is due to my desire to not step on other people's toes. As I understand it, the "cultural" argument is used to defend homosexuality as well, though that is clearly foolish.

The best argument I can think of for female preachers is that there aren't enough good male preachers. The basis is that men have so thoroughly and disastrously failed to do their duty (in religion, politics, science, family life, etc) that the women cannot be reasonably expected to sit idly by. There's some Biblical support for this in that God (apparently) appointed Deborah as a prophetess and judge over Israel (Judges 4:4), and I've heard this was because there were no suitable men (I don't know if there's any verses that back this up, there may be).

I could go on for a while, but I'm sure this has been hashed and re-hashed and re-hashed all over the internet.

One thing comes to mind, though: if there's a congregation (with a reasonably even number of men and women) and the men are in such a spiritual state that they cannot properly perform the duties accorded to their role, and women have to fill in, something is terribly wrong.

God's grace be with you all,
-Keith

 2004/4/15 15:27Profile
shazbot
Member



Joined: 2004/2/11
Posts: 60
USA

 Re: Can women preach/teach in church?

Remember that when that scripture was written, a woman speaking in public was socially unacceptable. Present culture dictates otherwise.

I think this verse has more to do with not being offensively and irrationally radical than it does with women preachers specifically.

God wants us to be separate from the world, and not conformed to it, but I think He also wants us to make sure we aren't being non-conformist just for the sake of shocking/offending other people, or to draw attention to ourselves. This turns people away from the Gospel, and that is selfish and in direct violation of a command of God.

Personally, I don't have a problem with women pastors. They are equally intelligent, obviously, and equally capable in my experience. They often bring insights into an issue that may be missed by men, and thus the two sexes complement each other.

Additionally, I have not seen anywhere that the male's authority extends anywhere beyond a marriage relationship, except under the Old Covenant, where the regulations were pretty much the same in this area as the culture of the time would have dictated anyway.

I hope my opinion helps-- feel free to disagree with me.

 2004/4/15 17:15Profile
KeithLaMothe
Member



Joined: 2004/3/28
Posts: 354


 Re:

Quote:
God wants us to be separate from the world, and not conformed to it, but I think He also wants us to make sure we aren't being non-conformist just for the sake of shocking/offending other people, or to draw attention to ourselves. This turns people away from the Gospel, and that is selfish and in direct violation of a command of God.

I agree that we should not preach private convictions as if they were supposed to be universal. Preaching against ties, TVs, computers, beards, shaving, ham, et cetera in such a manner would be without New Testament scriptural backing and to be dogmatic about it would be a problem and a sin in the way you describe.

Preaching against lying, fornication, lust, stealing, blasphemy, idolatry, and the like has very firm New Testament scriptural backing and is not only permissible but mandatory.

I'd say letting women in the pulpit falls somewhere inbetween, the question is where.

 2004/4/15 17:24Profile
bigdaveusa
Member



Joined: 2003/6/13
Posts: 49


 Re: Can women preach/teach in church?

The answer to your question in regard to scripture is simply: NO. Scripture is clear.
By the way Keith, I suppose that the spiritual condition of the aforementioned men necessitating a woman preach, is a suitable proof for your circular logic.
I am so limbered up now by the mental gymnastics, that I will now endeavor to touch the back of my neck with the tip of my nose. Yawn....
;-)


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Dave

 2004/4/18 3:52Profile
HakkaMin
Member



Joined: 2004/4/12
Posts: 60
Taiwan

 Re:

Ready for some more mental gymnastics, Dave? :-) (Thanks for the laugh!)

Just a bit curious how far you'd take the "clear" meaning of these scriptures. Does it mean that a man shouldn't read books written by women Bible teachers? Does it mean that men shouldn't listen to the Corrie Ten Boom teachings found here on sermonindex? (Or that she shouldn't have taught them if men were present to begin with?) Does it mean that women shouldn't post their opinions on scripture here on the board? (Which several posters have likened to the church.)

I'm really just throwing out these questions to prompt a more detailed explanation of your views on this pretty complex (and relevant to what I'm doing) issue. Thanks for your input!


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Gregg Dennington

 2004/4/18 6:11Profile
bigdaveusa
Member



Joined: 2003/6/13
Posts: 49


 Re:

HakkaMin,
Allow me to liven this up a bit.
Titus 2:3-5
3 "The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed."
c.f.
1 Corinthians 14:34-35
"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church"
c.f.
1 Timothy 2:1-15
1 "I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.
8 I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.
9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with braided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety."

I read that over and over and I ask myself, "did he really say that?" Why yes, he did. He also said:
Philippians 4:2-4
2 "I beseech Euodias, and beseech Syntyche, that they be of the same mind in the Lord.
3 And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life.
4 Rejoice in the Lord always: and again I say, Rejoice."

Paul clearly labored along side saintly women.
The issue here is one of authority. Does that extend to the reading of a book? The ministry of Corrie Ten Boom? Posts by women on this site? I think that depends on the woman. My life was powerfully touched by the testimony of Corrie Ten Boom, but I do not think it would be scriptural to allow her to lead my men's bible study. I'm in trouble now, aren't I?
I have to stop typing now, I stepped on my hand as I was dragging my knuckles along the ground.It's very painful....

:-D


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Dave

 2004/4/18 11:33Profile
moreofHim
Member



Joined: 2003/10/15
Posts: 1632


 Re:

wow, i am glad my husband does not know this. The Lord has allowed me to teach him practically everything he knows about his faith. And he will admit this wholeheartedly!!!! :-D

In Him, Chanin


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Chanin

 2004/4/18 11:50Profile
bigdaveusa
Member



Joined: 2003/6/13
Posts: 49


 Re:

Chanin,
Thank you for helping me make my point. ;-)


_________________
Dave

 2004/4/18 12:05Profile





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