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roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Much of what has been written has deeply saddened me, for the vast majority of it is the type of self centered sanctification that ultimately ends up in despair.

Have we all forgotten that we are Justified by faith? That is the acceptance into Heaven, when the Almighty Judge imparts life to a soul, and He declares them justified, He will not blot them out. Now we must also realize that true justification will produce sanctification as a process until glorification.

I digress as the whole reason we are accepted at all is Christ alone. There are no amount of good works you can do to be accpeted by the Father if you are not in Him, and conversely if you are in Him, you have every blessing.

Christ is our great Reward, not sinlessness, not sanctification, but Christ Himslef, the One who died for the ungodly that they might live to God.

Brethren much of what has been written here is no different than the Roman Catholic mixture of justification and sanctification. They blur the lines so that none can be justified unless sanctification is perfect. Yet as we all know if we are honest, it is an ongoing battle day by day. How then could any be saved? In the Roman system they invented purgatory to help explain away this dilemma.

Much of this also seems very much like the judaizers who were saying one could not be a CHristian unless... To them Paul adamantly said that a man is justified by faith alone. Consider this passage,
"Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."

The point of the Christian belief is that man cannot be good enough, even after conversion. All is Christ, evrything we have is because of and through Christ.

Make much of Christ, preach Him, and the hope of life in Him, and through Him. Then let the Holy Spirit do His work of sanctification in those who are legitimately His, else we run the risk of becoming legal tyrants and ascetics who make much of our work and little to nothing of His.


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/6/21 22:55Profile









 Re:

Believe me, I mean no trouble here, but is it wrong to put the same post in two places ?

It sort of splits this discussion I think.

http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=17545&forum=36&6

 2007/6/21 23:04









 Re:

I believe that Josef completely contradicts Jesus when he said in his article:

Quote:
" a condition that still had a measure of sin dwelling within the flesh and that didn’t yet have full and final redemption from the presence of sin"



And

Quote:
"If anybody professes to be a child of God, but has absolutely no admitted unworthiness and admits no present form of indwelling sin in some measure, then they deceive themselves and the truth is not in them."



This completely contradicts Christ who said:

Mt 23:25 - Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the [b]outside[/b] of the cup and dish, but [b]inside[/b] they are full of extortion and self-indulgence.

Mt 23:26 - Blind Pharisee, [b]first[/b] cleanse the [b]inside[/b] of the cup and dish, that the [b]outside[/b] of them may be clean also.

Outward obedience, but not inward obedience is Phariseeism!! Certainly true holiness is not what the Pharisees lived, outwardly obeying but inwardly sinning! No! True Christianity is purity of the inward heart, to have a perfect heart, that obeys God out of a loving heart!!

What can "inward sin" be other then sin of the heart! But what is the new birth but a new heart???? Inward sin is a will to sin. Inward sin is not an involuntary emotion or feeling of the flesh. But inward sin is a committal of the will, an evil intention.

If indwelling sin cannot be removed now by the Savior, but Christ can only remove outward sins, then Christ is an incapable and imperfect Savior! But such is a slanderous charge upon Christ!

And to say that the saints can only be perfected after death, but not before death, is to make death our Savior rather then the present Christ!!

--------------------

Also, Josef's idea of perfection is absurd, saying that a man who is perfect CANNOT sin again, or that a Christian perfected CANNOT sin after conversion.

Quote:
It is a doctrine that teaches that true Christians live in a state of sinless-ness, having no sin. It teaches that from the moment one is truly born again, they will never sin again, and that anyone who does not live and walk in such a state is not saved



Those of us who teach Christian perfection do not teach that! That is a misunderstanding, a straw man arguement. I have never meet a preacher of perfection who ever said once you were perfected you could not fall from that perfection.

Perfection is not the inability to sin, but the unwillingness to sin. A sinlessly perfection Christian can backslide and sin, but they lose their salvation if they are in a state of sin of coarse if they know that they have sinned and are unwilling to repent.

Heb 3:12 - Take heed, [b]brethren[/b], lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in [b]departing from the living God[/b].

(What is a brethren departing from God in his heart, if it is not having inward sin?)

James 5:19-20 - [b]Brethren[/b], if any of you do [b]err from the truth[/b], and one convert him; Let him know, that he which [b]converteth the sinner[/b] from the error of his way shall save a soul from [b]death[/b], and shall hide a multitude of [b]sins[/b].

Christian perfection is a perfection of love, a perfection of the heart.

1Ki 8:61 - Let your heart therefore be perfect with the LORD our God, to walk in his statutes, and to keep his commandments, as at this day.

1Ki 11:4 - For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned away his heart after other gods: and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as was the heart of David his father.

1Ki 15:3 - And he walked in all the sins of his father, which he had done before him: and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as the heart of David his father.

1Ki 15:14 - But the high places were not removed: nevertheless Asa's heart was perfect with the LORD all his days.

2Ki 20:3 - I beseech thee, O LORD, remember now how I have walked before thee in truth and with a perfect heart, and have done that which is good in thy sight. And Hezekiah wept sore.

1Ch 12:38 - All these men of war, that could keep rank, came with a perfect heart to Hebron, to make David king over all Israel: and all the rest also of Israel were of one heart to make David king.

1Ch 28:9 - And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.

1Ch 29:9 - Then the people rejoiced, for that they offered willingly, because with perfect heart they offered willingly to the LORD: and David the king also rejoiced with great joy.

1Ch 29:19 - And give unto Solomon my son a perfect heart, to keep thy commandments, thy testimonies, and thy statutes, and to do all these things, and to build the palace, for the which I have made provision.

2Ch 15:17 - But the high places were not taken away out of Israel: nevertheless the heart of Asa was perfect all his days.

2Ch 16:9 - For the eyes of the LORD run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to shew himself strong in the behalf of them whose heart is perfect toward him. Herein thou hast done foolishly: therefore from henceforth thou shalt have wars.

2Ch 19:9 - And he charged them, saying, Thus shall ye do in the fear of the LORD, faithfully, and with a perfect heart.

2Ch 25:2 - And he did that which was right in the sight of the LORD, but not with a perfect heart.

Ps 101:2 - I will behave myself wisely in a perfect way. O when wilt thou come unto me? I will walk within my house with a perfect heart.

Isa 38:3 - And said, Remember now, O LORD, I beseech thee, how I have walked before thee in truth and with a perfect heart, and have done that which is good in thy sight. And Hezekiah wept sore.

 2007/6/22 4:47









 Re:

Josef,

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE answer these questions!! It's very important! I posted them repeatedly on another forum, but you seemed to continually ignore them. I am hoping that you just didn't see them, and I am still believing in your willingness to defend your view.

Failure to directly answer these honest questions would only leave me to assume, that answering these questions would do great damage to your position, or that you simply haven't thoroughly thought about the issue at hand. Failure to answer these honest and sincere questions directly must reveal that you hold to an undefendable position.

These are it:

1. Does God want Christians to be sinless in this life?

2. Do real Christians want to be sinless in this life?

3. Does God want to reveal to us all our sin, all our "unknown sin"?

4. Do Christians want to repent of all sin, even "unknown sin"?

5. If we ask God to show us all our sin, will He answer that prayer?

If God will not answer that prayer, why not??

6. Are we capable of turning from all known sin?

If so, could we turn from all the sin that God shows us, even turn from all our sin if God shows us all of it??

--------------------------------------------------------------------

What is it that keeps us from being perfect?

I have heard only two reasons from people why we cannot be perfect.

1. Ignorance keeps us from perfection (As Patrick - Josef - Andrew maintain) i.e. unknown sin.

But again, what keeps God from revealing unknown sins to those who want them to be revealed? Does God not reveal sin to sinners who do not want them to be revealed? How much MORE would a sin hating God reveal all sin to those who want them to be revealed!!

2. The flesh or the body (as someone just posted) keeps us from being perfect in this life.

But what about the flesh or the body keeps us from being perfect? Is the flesh a sin itself, as Augustine and others maintained? Or does the flesh force us to sin, as others maintain?

Isn't the flesh only an INFLUENCE or a TEMPTATION towards sin, but not a sin itself, and not a CAUSATION to sin?? And isn't our will free? In which freedom, we can choose to submit to our flesh or choose to submit to the spirit?

If the flesh is only a tempation, and the human will is free, then the flesh does not prevent anyone from being perfect!!

 2007/6/22 4:50









 Re:

It would also seem that many define "inward sin" as a fleshly emotion or a feeling.

But a fleshly emotion or a feeling (lusts of the flesh) are not sin at all, but are temptation.

Sin is when the will voluntarily submits to unlawfully gratify the feeling, emotion, lust.

James says that we are TEMPTED by our own lust, and when we yeild to it, then it "bringeth forth sin". The flesh, or inward emotions, are a mere temptation. But yeilding to them is a sin.

But inward sin cannot be an involuntary emotion or an involuntary lust. Inward sin, which Christ COMMANDED the Pharisees to clean out, must be a voluntary committal of the will, or a sinfulness of the heart.

Inward sin can be nothing but the inward heart determined to sin, a selfish intention, or a will to sin.

Hense, to look with lust is adultery, to hate is murder. And why we are responsible to clean out the inside of the cup as well as the outside. And how all sin comes from the heart, that is, all sin comes from the will.

But Christian perfection is a perfection of love, a purity of the heart, when a man's intention is totally blameless, when he loves God supremely and his neighbor equally, seeking their welfare.

 2007/6/22 5:22
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

Correct me if i am wrong, But, I havent heard anything about the role of the Holy Spirit in holiness.........hmmmmmm
David

 2007/6/22 10:13Profile









 Re:

Quote:

Lazarus1719 wrote:
1. Does God want Christians to be sinless in this life?
2. Do real Christians want to be sinless in this life?
3. Does God want to reveal to us all our sin, all our "unknown sin"?
4. Do Christians want to repent of all sin, even "unknown sin"?
5. If we ask God to show us all our sin, will He answer that prayer?
If God will not answer that prayer, why not??
6. Are we capable of turning from all known sin?
If so, could we turn from all the sin that God shows us, even turn from all our sin if God shows us all of it??
-------------------------------------------------
7.What is it that keeps us from being perfect?

Hi Lazarus

I know this was addressed to Josef, by may I just respond to this?

You seem to have misunderstood, or maybe not noticed, what was said in my second message on this thread.

WE are not the sinless ones - JESUS is.

WE are not perfect - JESUS is

And if JESUS is in us then His perfection is in us, as a well of living water springing up.

That way HE gets all the glory, not us.

As we abide in Him, His sinless life springs up in us and is outworked through us.

We have to actively co-operate of course, but we are not sinless, we have "died to sin", which isn't the same thing!

Self-righteousness, righteousness that springs from self not from HIM, is "as filthy rags" as Isaiah said. He knew it first hand when he had a vision of God (Isaiah 6)

To take your questions one at a time - for they are good and searching questions, (and I'm not quite sure of the answers of some):

[color=000099] 1. Does God want Christians to be sinless in this life?[/color]

Yes, except WE are not the ones who are sinless.

[color=000099]2. Do real Christians want to be sinless in this life? [/color]

Same as the answer to 1.

[color=000099]3. Does God want to reveal to us all our sin, all our "unknown sin"? [/color]

Yes, as we can bear it

[color=000099]4. Do Christians want to repent of all sin, even "unknown sin"? [/color]

Yes

[color=000099]5. If we ask God to show us all our sin, will He answer that prayer? [/color]

Maybe, but that involves a revelation of His holiness that might destroy us.

[color=000099]If God will not answer that prayer, why not??[/color]

Because we may not be able to endure it.

[color=000099]6. Are we capable of turning from all known sin? [/color]

No

[color=000099]If so, could we turn from all the sin that God shows us, even turn from all our sin if God shows us all of it?? [/color]

Probably not
-------------------------------------------------
[color=000099]7. What is it that keeps us from being perfect? [/color]

The effects of the Fall, and the word of God that, "The soul that sinneth shall die".

The solution is that we indeed "die", and are "raised" again, spiritually, IN CHRIST.

That is what baptism symbolises.

It's all in the first part of Romans!

Blessings

Jeannette

 2007/6/22 13:07









 Re:

If we have died with Christ, and He is our all in all, and He dwells in us, can we ever miss the mark? Where are "we" then--our thoughts, our desires, our ambitions, our worries? Will He who began a good work in us not complete it?

The Scripture says that "in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation" (Gal. 6:15). It is Christ--not us--who makes all things new. If my simple, childish faith in Him is not enough, then what is?

In Christ,
Slavyan

 2007/6/22 15:37
running2win
Member



Joined: 2007/5/15
Posts: 231
Bowmansville Penssylvania USA

 Re:

Quote:
6. Are we capable of turning from all known sin?

No



[b]WHAT!?[/b] So maybe I have a bad temper and desperately long to overcome it because I know it's a greif to God and others and I know blowing up is sin and you're saying you believe that I have no hope of ever getting victory over it!? Maybe I struggle with drunkenness and am desperately seeking God to work in my life and set me free from that horrible sin and you're telling me I have no hope of ever being freed to the glory of God!? You need to realize before you go saying things like that that there are [b]HUNDREDS[/b] of people that look at these threads and you're telling all those sincere yet struggling christians that they're doomed to a life of sin! Jesus died to save His people from their [b]SIN[/b] and you're saying that they can't be saved from their sin!!! Did Christ die for nothing? If you're going to quote 1 John like the original post you've have to be fair and quote the rest of it where it says "Whosoever abideth in Him [b]SINNETH NOT![/b] So if I want to come to the place in my walk with God that I don't have to sin and you're saying I can never get there!? I know that if I fall I have an Advocate and that I don't lose my salvation because I got impatient or angry or something like that but I [b]KNOW[/b] that God can bring me to the place where I can live above [b]ALL[/b] sin. God forbid that many people see this thread.


_________________
Jeff Mollman

 2007/6/22 17:38Profile









 Re: Running2Win, jumping to conclusions

Quote:

running2win wrote:
Quote:
6. Are we capable of turning from all known sin?

No

[b]WHAT!?[/b] So maybe I have a bad temper and desperately long to overcome it because I know it's a greif to God and others and I know blowing up is sin and you're saying you believe that I have no hope of ever getting victory over it!? Maybe I struggle with drunkenness and am desperately seeking God to work in my life and set me free from that horrible sin and you're telling me I have no hope of ever being freed to the glory of God!? You need to realize before you go saying things like that that there are [b]HUNDREDS[/b] of people that look at these threads and you're telling all those sincere yet struggling christians that they're doomed to a life of sin! Jesus died to save His people from their [b]SIN[/b] and you're saying that they can't be saved from their sin!!! Did Christ die for nothing? If you're going to quote 1 John like the original post you've have to be fair and quote the rest of it where it says "Whosoever abideth in Him [b]SINNETH NOT![/b] So if I want to come to the place in my walk with God that I don't have to sin and you're saying I can never get there!? I know that if I fall I have an Advocate and that I don't lose my salvation because I got impatient or angry or something like that but I [b]KNOW[/b] that God can bring me to the place where I can live above [b]ALL[/b] sin. God forbid that many people see this thread.

Running2 Win, you have run much too fast here! You obviously haven't read what I wrote, just jumped with both feet on an imaginary error.

Go back and read my posts on this thread again, and hopefully you will understand what was meant.

Quote:
Are we capable of turning from all known sin?

No

The emphasis of the "No" is on "are WE..."?

Do you seriously believe that YOU can overcome sin in your own strength?

Are you forgetting that JESUS could and did overcome ALL sin?

Are you forgetting the Word from the Cross, "IT IS FINISHED!"?

[u][b]I[/b][/u] can't turn from sin, but HE can turn me!


Blessings


Jeannette

 2007/6/22 18:44





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