thank you guys for your posts.. this is a tough issue because of how much we really do not understand the Trinity..at best we see as though looking through a cloudy glass..
it's funny because on one hand, they seem to have different roles, and yet at the same time all were mentioned in scripture to have
* created the world
*brought individuals to salvation
*given gifts to believers
so with this thread, i am torn like many of you. i believe in praying to God, which is the Father, Son, Holy Spirit, but do you have to say one particular name??? i have a friend who was catholic and he asked me "phil, is it wrong to be praying to Jesus and not the Father? "i've been saying Jesus name, but i haven't been saying the Father's name..is He hearing me?? I went on to explain the Trinity to him the best i could..the point of the story is, if you are praying to God,and your heart is to glorify Him, does a believer always have to say Father at times and Son at times and Holy Spirit at other times?? i guess that's my take on this..
thanks for the post, i will be pondering this a lot today..love you guys.
| 2007/6/16 10:46||Profile|
| Prayer and Worship TO or IN the Spirit?|
Hi sb1175 and others,
I am glad that this posting has made you ponder.
I never said that the Holy Spirit is not God, He is a person and He is God. The Trinity is one of the great mysteries of God that man is not fit to explain to the full.
I would like to look more into the interaction of the 3 persons of the Godhead and their different roles and realms.
In many Charismatic circles the Holy Spirit is reduced to a power or force that is at our disposal and can be accessed to work healing, signs, wonders and manifestations at will. Then these people secretely take glory for themselves because they attribute it to their ability to "handle" this power. Most of them would not admit it openly, but this is widely practised. They pray TO the Spirit who they mistake for the power they are eager to see displayed. I would go so far and say that it can be done in a way where this power becomes and idol and dark forces are becoming active because it is not propperly aimed at glorifying God but rather feeding peoples lust for sensational experiences and soulish encounters.
This is a conterfeit of the real work of the Holy Spirit, who I believe still heals,works miracles, drives out demons, convicts. However, God receives the honor and their will be righteous fruit.
You may say that the women with the issue of blood accesssed God's power. Absolutely! However she threw herself at the feet of Jesus and trembled with fear. The Jesus released her and praised her faith.
In the Toronto Blessing inpired meetings people laugh and cookoo or bark. They fall backwards. They shake and shiver but not in awe of God. They are drunk, but in Acts 2 Peter said they were NOT drunk.
There will never be real conviction in the counterfeit displays of the "Spirit" work. Nor will there be an thorough expositon of the cross and the blood.
The Holy Spirit reveals the Son and the Father to us. He helps us to pray to the Father or Son with groanings and moanings that we cannot express ourselves.
There are a lot of references for people praying IN the Spirit or with the Spirit's behalf, but nowhere TO the Spirit.
I am not saying that you inevitably end up with the demonic if you do pray to the Holy Spirit. Most people have probably never really given it enough though.
The father received worship from the Son, the father spoke. It says in
2 Peter 1:17
For he received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."
This reference is never made to the Spirit and there is a reason for that.
In John 17:13 it says:
He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. 15All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.
So when the Spirit does not speak of His own but delivers what he has heard and bring glory to the Son we should do the same. We who are filled with the Spirit should glorify the Fahther and the Son.
Here is an analogy. Suppose you eat an absolutely delicous meal in a 5 star restaurant. You are served by a very attentive waiter. You praise the food for its delicacy, but it is the cook who deserves the praise. The waiter serves what the cook has prepared and will perhaps pass on the praise to the cook who you do not see. Without the waiter, the food would still be in the kitchen where your cannot go. The waiter would be a bit embarressed if your praise him for cooking the meal and would try to divert the praise to the cook.
The Holy Spirit has a servant role, not of lesser importance, because servanthood is a very honourable attribute in the kingdom of God.
Without cook there wood be no food, without the servant there would be no enjoyment of the same, since you are not permitted into the kitchen. The Kitchen represents heaven where mortals cannot go.
The waiter also serves the cutlery which helps you to cut up or scoop up the food. Eating you have to do by yourself.
Hope this illustration helps.
| 2007/6/16 12:22||Profile|
| Re: Prayer and Worship TO or IN the Spirit?|
john the revelator went into the "kitchen" and i have been there too. This is why we need revival. In revival so many myyths are disposed.I have been in 3 major revivals and have seen people get mad when the Holy Ghost would manifest in the meetings . Revival brings the Holy Spirit. And when he comes people with awful spirits manifest weird. I have seen this first hand.those spirits cannot stand the awsome presence of the Holy Ghost.If you will read smith wigglesworth you can get a different picture of the work of the Holy Ghost.
Revival will break out again, and when it does i hope to be in it.Its just too awesome to pass up. And the attackers will also be there.I wonder if the attackers could be a sign of a true revival? In anycase the attackers will think they are "helping God" and thee people in revival are the ones in deception.I have seen this first hand also. hope this helps....David
| 2007/6/16 15:45||Profile|
| Re: Prayer and Worship TO the Holy Spirit?|
| 2007/6/16 16:09||Profile|
| Re: Prayer and Worship TO the Holy Spirit?|
Interesting and helpful thread, thank you for starting it!
Your comments about some Charismatic excesses are, sadly, only too true, as most here would agree.
Just a couple of thoughts:
1. I hate it when people pray, "Come Holy Spirit" in meetings.
He is there, and if what is going on is pleasing to Him then He will be there in a special way and move in that meeting. We don't have to ASK Him!
Two of the keys to this are Solomon's prayer at the dedecation of the Temple (2Chronicles 7) and Acts 2, Pentecost.
Solomon did NOT pray "Come Holy Spirit", or "Come Holy Fire of the Lord" or anything like that.
Yet the fire fell, and the cloud of the Presence filled the House.
Why? Because of the humble prayer of the king, and because the sacrifice was on the altar.
Maybe other reasons, but these are the main ones I noticed.
The Spirit doesn't come when we ask Him, He comes when the timing and conditions, especially our hearts, are right.
I don't think it was an accident that it says in Acts that the disciples were "with one accord in one place" when the Spirit came!
2. Thinking of the amazing [i][u]humility[/u][/i] of the Godhead, (someone has already touched on this) leads me to a place of awe and worship
The Father keeps nothing back but gives all things to the Son
The Son does nothing of Himself, but only as the Father directs, as if He was ONLY a man, not God as well as man.
The Spirit is "pure Power", yet He effaces Himself and instead glorifies Jesus (John 16:14).
He allows Himself to be sent by the Father, just as the Son does - as if He was a mere angel - like a servant of God rather than His equal.
3. I have only prayed [i]to[/i] the Holy Spirit once or twice in my life. On the first occasion there was was a specific reason for it - I needed to know who He is!
Being only a very new believer - a matter of weeks maybe - I was puzzled. For some strange reason there were two doctrines I couldn't "feel" were true. There was no intellectual problem with them, but no deep conviction of their truth, as there was of other major doctrines.
One was the virgin conception of Jesus; the other was the Personality and Deity of the Holy Spirit.
So it seemed appropriate to ask the Spirit Himself who He was, saying something like: "Lord, I know the Bible says you are a Person and you are God, but I can't "see" it, that it's true. Will you show me please?"
And He did!
| 2007/6/16 16:21|