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Ever consider what heaven would be like if it were populated with unrepentant sinners? You'd have a mess just like what we have now and, I, for one, am looking forward to escape it. Unless people learn obedience now, they will not practice it in heaven, either. But then they will never get there so a person does not have to worry about that.
How do I know this? Scripture informs us in Galatians 5:19-21: NASB
19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God
God will not allow unrepentant sinners into his Glory. The best a body can do is to inform a person of these realities, not encourage them to remain in their sin. Actually, this is a no-brainer.
| 2011/8/29 9:04||Profile|
| 2011/8/29 9:23||Profile|
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"by EverestoSama on 2011/8/29 5:45:25 wrote:
["Would you consider a serial killer a Christian, if they still killed every now and then? Especially if they didn't see any problem with the occasional murder?
How about a Christian pedophile? We shouldn't say anything about that right?
I'm not saying someone who struggles with the temptation of these, but someone who still does them and doesn't seem to see a problem with them.
Remember that in the long list of those who would not inherit the kingdom of heaven Paul said, such WERE some of you, not such are.
Not that any of us were any better before Christ got a hold of us, but I shudder to think I could still call myself by the name of the sin that ensnared me before God let me have a new name.
Oh yes, love the homosexual. Love them so much that you're not scared to tell them that their lifestyle has consequences not only in this life, but in the life to come, and that they're only option IS to "Go and SIN NO MORE," no matter how unpopular it makes you.]
No, I would not make their homosexuality an issue. I want them to know who Jesus is, what He did for them should they accept His atoning blood covering that takes away all their sins. And then they will receive the Holy Spirit, and God will cleanse them from all unrighteousness, and love them.
Everest Sama. Your response to my prior post appeals to Sophistical Defenses. Sophistical Defenses are dodges or devices which are employed to protect a claim from objections.
The device that you are using is called a red herring. You introduced a serial killer, as well as pedophilia, into this conversation, that's two Red Herrings that you somehow think are equivalent to two adult men having sex in their privacy. It is not. Thus you have changed the topic to something totally different, in the hope that equating homosexuality to being a Serial killer, or to acts of Pedophilia. Shame on you for such an unethical reply, accusing me of giving Serial Killers and those who sexually abuse minors, a free pass.
And let me make it perfectly clear to you - EverestoSama, I would, If I could, share the gospel to a serial Killer, or to one who engaged in pedophilia, but unlike the Homosexuals I have been sharing the gospel with, I would witness to these felons in jail.
David Berkowitz was such a one, a murderer, but someone loved him and shared the gospel to David, and today he is a Christian, transformed into a new person through the workings of the indwelling Spirit.
And he is happy to stay in jail so he can continue to witness Jesus Christ to other prisoners who have also committed terrible crimes.
And I will forgive others of their sins just as God forgives mine.
As Billy Graham often said in his evangelical crusades,
COME AS YOU ARE, NOW IS THE TIME.
| 2011/8/30 3:01||Profile|
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So what I assume then is that some sin isn't as bad as other sin, and doesn't need turning from or confronting as much as other sins yeah?
God accepts sin that falls within a certain category of cultural acceptability, correct?
And you can continue to give out your "shame on you's" as much as you please. You will not find your positioning backed by Scripture. I just chose the extremes, and your response only validates my point rather than denies it. I can throw out an unrepentant liar, thief, adulterer, whatever into the list, it doesn't matter. Sin is sin. I mean if you want to get even further into it, Paul states that sexual immorality is even more serious than other sins, as it sins against one's own body.
And why not make homosexuality an issue with the homosexual? Jesus cut strait to the case with the woman at the well. He didn't beat around the bush. When I was living in sin, I turned when my sin was put in front of my eyes in light of God's Holiness, and the Holy Spirit worked conviction in my life. Without repentance there is no indwelling. I mean, I wouldn't hark on it, and constantly point my finger at their sin, we've all sinned, but they need to be made aware of it.
As mentioned in another thread 1 John 3:9: (NASB)
No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
The word for sin here in Greek is used in the present continuous active form, meaning a lifestyle of sin. One is not of Christ and of a worldly form of sin.
A Christian homosexual, thief, pedophile, murderer, liar, slanderer, gossip, etc. I think not. Neither does the Scripture. Such were some of us, and of the many liberties weren't given in Christ, staying as such is not one of them.
Come as you are, yes. Stay as you are? Most definitely not.
I would advise quoting some Scripture, not some Billy Graham in the future.
| 2011/9/1 0:09||Profile|
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I just read your post right above, EverestoSama.
Did you know that before the Mosaic Law was given, homosexuality was legal?
Should I assume that when you became a Christian, that you stopped sinning before you accepted Jesus Christ and have been sinless ever since. Or do you just feel that your sins are not as bad as theirs, being more acceptable to God then theirs are.
Here is another verse from the letter of John, 1 John 1
1 Jn 1:5-10
This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. IF WE SAY THAT WE HAVE NOT SINNED, WE MAKE HIM A LIAR AND HIS WORD IS NOT IN US. NASU
From that last sentence I put in caps, I know you and I are sinners.
And that scripture is clear, as you measure others, so it will be measured unto you, you will be judged as you judged others. If we show mercy, God will show us mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgement. This is one of the Laws of the New Covenant, the Law of Liberty.
In my view, you a blocking them from God with demands that God did not put on you. Demands that you can not keep yourself, unless you really are sinless.
Let them accept Jesus as their Lord and savior, and let us have faith in God to do in them what He said He would do, transform their very nature. It's not our place to judge and condemn them, since we are saved despite our ongoing sins, solely through the atoning blood of Jesus, and certainly not because we are sinless.
| 2011/9/1 1:08||Profile|
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Quote: Did you know that before the Mosaic Law was given, homosexuality was legal?
So was murder, rape, theft, adultery, fornication, lying, pedophilia, and any other sin you can think of if you want to refer to it as "legal". The only thing that was commanded to abstain from so far was eating the fruit of the tree. Still, it didn't stop God from destroying the world once for it's wickedness.
What wickedness? There were no laws in place... were there?
No one is advocating that we haven't sinned. That's for sure. Everyone has sinned. You're right, it's not our place to judge and condemn them. It's the Word of God's place, which it has no problem doing. Jesus commanded that a Gospel of Repentance be preached, not a gospel of, "just keep living in the sin that enslaves you".
I don't think anyone here is saying that you won't sin. We're saying you can't live in sin and say it's OK. Especially when the Bible says that it isn't.
You can continue to respond, but I'll leave further responses to others. I've said pretty much all I can think of. Like Ginnyrose said, I've always viewed it as sort of a no-brainer.
| 2011/9/1 2:07||Profile|
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Well said Everestosama,
But if homosexuality was "legal" then God would have unjustly killed those of Sodom and Gommorah. We are all so indebt to God its not even funny.
Our only hope is Christ Jesus, who said loud and clear Repent, and any man that doesn't take up his cross CAN'T be my disciple. We are called to death, this includes our sins and our old man, our ambitions, our dreams, our righteousness. And anything and everything is Christ, was Christ sexually immoral and was He in support of it? No.
I stand on this ground, I had to give up my sins when I came to Christ, this being my desire to sin against God without repercussions of that sin. I can't sin know ignorantly thinking "its all peaches and cream with God because He is graceful." No Paul tells us in Romans over and over again, so because Grace increases does this mean we should sin all the more so grace would increase? BY NO MEANS!
The fact is ANY man that submits its body willfully to sin is a slave to that sin. Christ's call is one to Freedom FROM Sin. Matthew 1:21 states that, "21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus,[a] because he will save his people from their sins.
What a wonderful Salvation! I no longer have to be a lustful, adulterer, lying, murdering, theiving, hypocritical person but through Christ I can seek death to all of these on the Cross and become a Slave to Righteousness as Paul exhorts in Romans 6.
Is it right to judge these individuals? No Is it right to withhold what the bible says about their lifestyle so we don't offend them? No. We must speak the truth in LOVE and Compassion. And this means speaking all of the truth no matter how ugly.
| 2011/9/1 8:39||Profile|
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What was 'legal' before the Mosiac law was given can only be assumed by careful study of the WORD. Nowhere do we find that God has set forth a law detailing what kind of behaviors was acceptable. However, this does not mean it did not exist, it just means the Scriptures does not share this information.
(I wish someone else would do this but since no one else will, here goes...)
Adam and Eve were absolutely perfect. They had perfect knowledge based on their relationship with God. They were ignorant of one thing and that is what would happen if and when man disobeys God. Armed with this sense one can assume they had a sense of rightness that was passed on to succeeding generations.
Consider Cain: there was no law that said "thou shalt no kill", yet God held him accountable. Apparently he knew what sin was. Where did this sense of wrongness/sin come from? Genesis 4:7 God tells Cain "sin lieth at the door." After he killed Abel Cain was very defensive...an innocent man is not defensive.
Fast forward to Genesis 6:3: God says "my spirit shall not always strive with man." Verse 5: "Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." NASB
How did God teach these people? It mentions Spirit. Oh...OH!
Genesis 6:9: "Noah walked with God." In 2Peter 2:5 Noah is described as a "preacher of righteousness." How did Noah know what is righteous? The Spirit of God?
Fast forward some more to Abraham: Remember when Pharoah took Sarai but God intervened? Notice Pharoah's reaction to Abraham's deception? How did he know?
Or, what about Lot when he told the Sodomites they were acting wickedly when they asked for his visitors (males, assumed such by the Sodomites) in order to have sex with them? Gen. 19:5-7.
How did Joseph know it was wrong for him to lie with his master's wife?
Why were Jacob's sons outraged when they learned that their sister Dinah was taken advantage of by Shechem? Gen.34. What fueled this outrage?
On and on.
My point: Scriptures prove the people knew what was right and wrong before God gave the law to Moses on Mt. Sinai. They were not free to sin without repercussions before this event.
Sin is sin. God put that knowledge within the mind of man and when man spurns this knowledge he will give him/her over to a reprobate mind - one who has no conscience of right and wrong. Moderns sometimes calls these people sociopath.
Let us never be guilty of not challenging sin when we see it. Ever noticed the many times when Jesus healed people he told them "to go and sin no more"? This message has not changed any, has it?
| 2011/9/1 9:14||Profile|
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Great posts Mathew and Ginnyrose, you adequately summed it up in the words I couldn't seem to find. Thanks!
| 2011/9/1 10:01||Profile|
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The depth of sin is much bigger then we understand, we often on the surface with this subject. Is this not sin to eat plenty when the other person starves? We count sin as something personal, but it is also corporate, we work for the world that hates God, giving it our energy and talants and receive a pay from it. We are sold to sin and we need to be redeemed and we need to follow the Savior so God would not hold us accountable for taking part in the common crazyness.
And the biggest prove of it is a political decisions of our government who we vote for but who go against God. So only Jesus will do and also we must gather with Him and constantly invest in His Kigdom turning everything for the good of His Kingdom.
| 2011/9/7 15:31||Profile|