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philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Maybe John 3v16 isn't literal either.



and what about Matt 5:30. I did hear of some who believed it was and acted it out.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2007/6/14 13:24Profile
enid
Member



Joined: 2006/5/22
Posts: 2661
Nottingham, England

 Re:

Amen.

 2007/6/14 13:44Profile









 Re:

Little Gift asked

Quote:
1. What's stopping Genesis 1 being BOTH literal AND symbolic? This is so in much of Scripture - for example, Ezekiel acted out several of his prophecies, and Jesus' parables were sometimes acted out symbolism (such as cursing the fig tree; there's no reason to doubt that it did actually wither. But Jesus wasn't into destroying fig trees just to show He could - He meant something by it, it was a symbolic action).



There are a few reasons I don't take Genesis literally.

My first argument:

1. If the Earth was "without form, and void" on day one, it wasn't a planet/sphere ("form") and didn't even exist ("void")...

2. And "days" as we know them are simply a single full rotation of the earth as measured by the Sun (which wasn't created until Day Four)...

3. [b]Therefore[/b], having no rotating Earth and no Sun, I believe whatever this "Day" was, it probably wasn't a literal 24-hour day.

My second:

Genesis states that plants, grasses, flowers, etc existed on Day Three, and then the Sun on Day Four... which seems to conflict mightily with observable botany and biology. I am fully open to the possibility that God could have made plants before the very thing that feeds them via photosynthesis (the Sun), but I doubt He would make things that confusing for us.

My Third:

I've found trilobite (really, really, really old crab-like creatures that lived in the oceans) fossils way high up in the rockies, have seen dinosaur bones up close in museums, read books about them, and I was friends with dozens of geologists, and a few paleontologists... I've taken a few Geology courses, too... and heathen though they may be, I don't believe hundreds of thousands of scientists around the world are involved in a vast conspiracy to undermine the literal young-earth theory of the creationists.

My fourth:

"For creatures of the dry land were turned into creatures of the waters, and creatures that swim trode now upon the earth." (Wisdom of Solomon 19:19, Apocrypha, KJV 1611)

I obviously believe in ID (Intelligent Design), but I'm not a Creationist.

Quote:
2. Whatever shape or no shape the earth was in "in the beginning", why do you think it makes any difference to our understanding of the chapter? Creation could still have taken 6 days to complete.

Do you mean that you believe that the earth has to exist and have 24 hour rotation before there can be things called "days".



I'm saying [b]24 hours is a day to us[/b], not necessarily to God. To say He works by our timetable, years, months, weeks, days, hours, minutes, seconds is humancentric at best, blasphemy at worst.

If space, the Sun, and the Earth didn't exist on Day One - time probably didn't either (E=Mc2). A rational human observer of the Universe cannot seperate space and time (the measuring of events as they happen, rising and setting Sun, etc).

I somehow think God, being outside of Space/Time, does not need to "be on time" or obey the trivial rotations of an otherwise insignificant speck of dust and water we happen to call "Earth".

I'm awestruck at the thought He's interested in us at all >;')

Quote:
But I can see no reason why God didn't simply arrange things such as the earth's rotation, to fit in with a pre-existing period of time that He'd just invented!

In fact Genesis 1 itself suggests that the sun and moon were created to mark times and seasons, day and night, not to cause day and night to happen!

God of course has no need of such markers, any more than He needs the sun to give light – He created light before the sun existed.

And of course it’s all symbolic too, as God also intended it for our instruction.



The Light God Spoke into being on the first day was the Word. Light, Life, Word = Jesus. Please read John Chapter One.

I have some questions for you:

Say you inherit $20,000. After you donate 10% (or more) to charity, should you ask your pastor what stocks and/or bonds to invest the remainder in?

If a family member was electrocuted while plugging something into the wall who do you immediately call? Your pastor?

If you're flying to England next month to visit family, do you call your pastor for the best deal on flights?

No. You call the stock broker, the ambulance, and the travel agent.

If you want to know where dinosaurs came from or how old the Earth is, should you be asking your pastor?

I don't mean to seem harsh. Just trying to make my point the best way I know how.

I would advise against trying to make modern science fit into any preconcieved notions you (or anyone else) might have about Creation. Research, ask questions, read the Bible, meditate and pray about what you find. And God Bless You!!!!

Our Lord Jesus is the Lord of Truth. Amen.

 2007/6/14 19:40
vico
Member



Joined: 2005/5/25
Posts: 258


 Re:

Careful brother, there are many young ones on this site. :-)

Many will know what you are referring to, but it might confuse others.

Lord bless you brother. I love you :-D

 2007/6/14 20:27Profile
Moorsey
Member



Joined: 2006/5/29
Posts: 7


 Re:

Surely if God had wanted us to know the ins and outs of Creation He would have told us. Genesis would have been a thesis the size of 1000 Bibles detailing the process of Creation which would have satisfied the scientists. My personal belief is that if God had done this, man would quickly have taken this knowledge and used it sinfully.

Remember it takes the Holy Spirit dwelling in us to enable us to understand the Bible. If it was written like any other book, the world would understand it. Talking to an unregenerate scientist about Creation is somewhat fruitless. They can’t see Christ in Genesis 1. They can’t see the Divine Purpose. Creation was easy for God, but Salvation cost Him and how can men who reject this great Salvation expect to ever understand Creation.

I’ve learnt that the best way to have your questions answered is, if you are able, to read the Bible prayerfully and truly accepting it as inerrant (all seemingly contradictive statements in the Bible come from translation issues and taking passages out of context) and you will find not only you get your questions answered but you get answers to questions you haven’t even thought of yet. How wonderful. It will be in God’s timing though and everybody’s walk with the Lord is unique.

The major problem is of course we have a fierce enemy who is constantly trying to throw us off the path. Satan doesn’t want us discovering these great truths and being a blessing to others. Satan would rather have us watching TV or arguing with evolutionists about Genesis 1. The only way we can win this battle is to stick close to the Lord and not to stray from Scripture. We know Satan is a defeated foe, but we’re easy prey if we stray! In today’s world there are so many distractions. That’s why I find myself reading commentaries by dead men. There are few modern expositors with real Spiritual depth. This is desperately sad.

The above said – :-) – I would like to briefly discuss your point, Corey H, about the Sun arriving after the plants. My personal belief on this issue is that God created the plants and the Sun was then created to SUSTAIN the plants. The parallel is in our own life. When God saves us and gives us true life which starts to bear fruit He’ll give us what we need to SUSTAIN us! Just a thought.

God Bless
:-)

----------------------------------

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. (Romans 10:17)

 2007/6/15 5:55Profile
Josiah777
Member



Joined: 2004/2/17
Posts: 99
Sterling, VA

 Re:

Quote:
My personal belief on this issue is that God created the plants and the Sun was then created to SUSTAIN the plants. The parallel is in our own life. When God saves us and gives us true life which starts to bear fruit He’ll give us what we need to SUSTAIN us! Just a thought.



Moorsey -
Great thought! I hadn't considered that, and your application was thought provoking :-) God will give us exactly what we need to sustain the resurrection life He started - cool!

I don't know if you have ever noticed this, but the Bible ends much like it begins. At the end, Jesus says, "I am the Bright and Morning Star". The Morning Star is that star that as the day dawns becomes brighter and brighter and all other stars fade into oblivion. The Morning Star then becomes the solitary star in the morning sky. On Day 1 that is how it was too. There was no other lights in the sky but One--in essence, Christ the "Morning Star". Same concept, though a little different.

On Day 4, if you read verses 14 - 17, what are the words that the Holy Spirit is constantly repeating. We should pay attention to repetiton and follow the spotlight of the Spirit of this inspired Book. 8 times we see the word "light" or "lights". We are drawn at once to the emphasis (like Day 1) to light. The "Morning Star" of Day 1 disappears and now is expressed through these heavenly bodies. The light is still coming to the earth (as it was in Day 1) but now in a different form.

Our Bible was written in such a way that Christ disguises Himself in His created things. Without John 15, how would we have known that the vine and branches reveals the beautiful union between Christ and His disciples? In Luke 24, Jesus drew near the disciples but their eyes were held in such a way they couldn't recognize Him. When we look at the story of Jonah, on the surface it looks like merely a rebellious prophet, but beneath the veneer of human flesh is the glorious picture of Christ in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights. I could go on, for there are many such examples.

I might suggest that these lights--the sun ("the greater light"), the moon ("the lesser light"), and the stars--correspond to the people of God, Israel, as depicted in Joseph's dream (Gen. 37:9-10). The light of Christ is taken from the super-concentrated form of Day 1 (dwelling in unapproachable light , whom no man has seen or can see - 1 Tim. 6:16) and now put into frail vessels of human flesh. So now we see Christ in Isaac who carried the wood of his own sacrifice up the mountain. Now we see Christ in Joseph, who went through the valley of humilitation and exalted over his brothers and became the "bread of life" to the whole world. We again see Christ in Joshua, the one who leads the people into the inheritance. We have a rich parade of men and women across the pages of holy Scripture that in some way, shape or form, are instruments through whom the Lord Jesus shines. The Light has now been diffused across the Bible like stars across the night sky that we may take Him in, and as you said, be sustained in that life that He started.

May God bless you as you seek to see Him and know Him and be wonderfully transformed into the same likeness,

Ken


_________________
Ken Marino

 2007/6/15 8:17Profile









 Re:

Moorsey and Ken:Some great thoughts here to ponder on!

Thanks

Jeannette

 2007/6/15 16:59









 Re:

Hi again Corey

I did wonder if it would be helpful answering any part of your recent post, but will give it another go, if only for the sake of others.

YOu said:

Quote:
I have some questions for you:

...If you want to know where dinosaurs came from or how old the Earth is, should you be asking your pastor?

No, unless he also had some scientific understanding of such matters, and could see past evolutionary myths, rather than following the herd blindly.

Part of the evolutionary myth is that Evolution, and the "necessary" billions of years, is scientific! Evolution is part of a belief system, just as belief in God who created the universe is.

Quote:
I don't mean to seem harsh. Just trying to make my point the best way I know how.

You don’t seem harsh, only brainwashed, just as I was, into believing Satan’s lies touted as science!
Quote:
I would advise against trying to make modern science fit into any preconceived notions you (or anyone else) might have about Creation.

Can you follow your own advice? Because all you have brought in defence of Evolution are preconceived notions based on pseudo-scientific assumptions!

Romans 1:22-23 says,

[color=000099] [i][u]Professing to be wise, they became fools[/u][/i], 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.”[/color]

Quote:
Research, ask questions, read the Bible, meditate and pray about what you find. And God Bless You!!!!

Bless you too! But I wish you would believe God rather than man - He's much more reliable!

As I said, I was steeped in Evolution from a child (as most people in our culture are) and was furious when (soon after becoming a Christian while studying a Biological siences course) someone challenged me that how could I believe Evolution? My anger alerted me to the fact there was something wrong – why be so angry if it was only a theory?

That’s when I went to the Lord about it and He opened my eyes to the many SCIENTIFIC flaws in the concept of Evolution. It was just so obvious that things couldn’t have “evolved”. I was shocked that I didn’t see it before!

The more I’ve read and researched since, and the more understanding true science has about how living things work, the less likely Evolution seems.

This belief system, of which Evolution is a part, is an actual enemy stronghold, that is utterly opposed to God. (Why does Richard Dawkins for example, have such virulent hatred for the God he doesn’t believe in?)

2Corinthians 10:3-5
[color=000099]"For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh. 4 For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, 5 casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ"[/color]

"argument" (KJV "imaginations") 1... a reckoning, computation. 2 a reasoning.

I hope this may help some who didn't know that it's perfectly scientific to question scientists' Evolutionary dogma!

Too many scientists have been brainwashed by Satan, and have been used to brainwash others. I just thank the Lord He opened my eyes to this deception, and pray that you will let Him do the same for you.


Blessings


Jeannette

 2007/6/16 20:06









 Re:

Jeanette (LittleGift) said

Quote:
You don’t seem harsh, only brainwashed, just as I was, into believing Satan’s lies touted as science!



If scientific method doesn't discover natural truths, jets shouldn't be flying, kids with leukemia shouldn't be surviving, and I should never have downloaded and heard the Mp3 sermon by A.W. Tozer... and been converted to the cause of Christ.

If Geology is wrong, geologists shouldn't be so darn good at finding the gold and oil - not to mention dinosaur fossils.

If medicine is wrong, doctors shouldn't know the difference between a sprain and a break.

Turn on the light, boot up the computer, get on the internet, visit the online travel agency, book a vacation, drive to the airport (the kids watch a DVD movie on the T.V. screen hanging from the roof), fly halfway across the States in two hours, drive to the "Creation Museum" and learn how Noah took two tyrannesaurus rex' on the Ark...

Isn't it hypocritical to use all the amnemities of modern science - medicine, travel, telecommunications, architecture, botany, biology, chemistry, physics - and yet dispense of two parts, the age of the earth and evolution because they conflict with the creation story?

If the entire scientific community is under some sort of mass deception, should we Christians be flying in the planes, or taking the medicines, or downloading the Mp3s designed by them? If scientific theory is fundamentally flawed, these things shouldn't be safe at all... or even work, right?

The Theory of "Occam's Razor" states, "The simplest explanation tends to be the right one."

"The truth shall set you free."

 2007/6/16 21:43









 Re:

If anyone's been monitoring this thread and believes in Intelligent Design but not a literal six 24-hour days Creation, could you please let me know how, and even if, you discuss it with Creationists?

Thanks.

 2007/6/16 23:48





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